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-> Yom Tov / Holidays
-> Purim
micki
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 Fri, Mar 17 2006, 11:48 am
| Quote: | | Aha. So what behavior is expected from a two y | r old?
and you think I have never had a 2 year old?
the sarcasm is amazing.
as all my 2 yr olds, and 1 yr olds and 3 year olds have done every year, they have always behaved during megilla.
to answer your question,, I expect them to sit quitly, look at their books, eat thei snack and shake their gragger when I tell them to!
I tell my kids the rules BEFORE we go places so they know what they are supposed to do. I don't say, "be good."
I say, no running, no yelling, no fighting... etc.
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miriam
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Fri, Mar 17 2006, 1:40 pm
| lucky wrote: | | Quote: | | and tell them what behavior you expect from them. |
Aha. So what behavior is expected from a two yr old? 
Young kids cannot sit for so long. Even with snacks, one kid just has to try and take a bit of nash from his brother and you have war.
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I am not quite sure why you are generalizing. My kids also know what is expected of them and know they need to behave. I also have a two year old and a four year old and a two month old and they all listened very nicely by megillah. We had pretzles, juice boxes and Ima's lap whenever they wanted. Also make sure to take everyone to the bathroom beforehand.
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chen
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Fri, Mar 17 2006, 2:24 pm
Ladies whose children are of a comparatively sedate nature, a little consideration for women whose tiny tots may be of a livelier disposition than your own. If your 4-and-below can sit quietly and not disturb, good for you. You are more blessed than you know. Sitting quietly is not just a matter of good upbringing: it is also a matter of emotional and physical maturation, of attention span, and of personality. Some people are born with a more placid personality while others will always be bouncing off the walls.
Some children that age are simply not capable of sitting through a long service. It doesn't make them bad children, and it doesn't mean that their mothers are incompetent or overindulgent. It does mean that they have no business being in shul during megillah. Simply admonishing them "no running, yelling, fighting, etc. in shul", or providing books and snacks is not going to do it for them.
And I personally question the propriety and chinuch value of giving children snacks in the sanctuary, given that one is not supposed to eat in a shul.
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micki
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Fri, Mar 17 2006, 5:19 pm
so anyone who knows my kids, are they sedate? quiet?
ha -thats funny chen.
my kids are lively and can bounce off the walls, but they know what I expect of them and when.
don't make excuses for a spoiled child.
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happymom
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Fri, Mar 17 2006, 5:47 pm
my point wasn't that everyones husband can read it but rather that it should be organized that mothers shouldn't need to brings kids to shul. In most neiborhoods there are some guys who read the megillah to their wives.. or later for whatever reason... and I think mothers should try to find one like that cuz one cant expect a lil baby to be quiet in shul 
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amother
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Sun, Mar 19 2006, 4:36 pm
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All it took was for one little kid to fall off his chair. No one heard anything till the mother managed to get him out of shul.
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Motek
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Tue, Mar 21 2006, 2:49 pm
| amother wrote: | | All it took was for one little kid to fall off his chair. No one heard anything till the mother managed to get him out of shul. |
okay, there you go ...
In my opinion it is irresponsible for a mother to come to shul with children aged 3 and younger because there is no way she can GUARANTEE that they will be SILENT for 45 minutes. Even if they went to the bathroom earlier, even if well-prepared about what to expect and what is expected of them, even if provided with snacks. In the example of falling off the chair - an adult is highly conscious of the need to be SILENT and not to ruin it for herself and others. A child is not capable of that consciousness when aged 3 and younger.
When I went to shul this year, before the laining began I saw a young mother with a squirming child that looked about 18 months old (in addition to her 3 yr. old). I thought: oh G-d, save us, that kid is going to ruin it for hundreds of ladies!
Well, smart young mother left shul before the laining began because she KNEW that was the prudent thing to do.
As for those who are not able to get out of the house at all, or those whose husbands are not available to watch their children or who can't get a babysitter, I think they should call up, well in advance, and arrange for someone to lain for them. Especially in CROWN HEIGHTS for heaven's sake, when countless people spend Purim laining for others, mothers who cannot get out of the house should have someone come and lain for them.
My father saw a sign from the Bikur Cholim, desperate for people to lain for the homebound. He lained three times Purim day in people's homes. There are men (and boys) out there, willing to do the mitzva.
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Motek
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Tue, Mar 21 2006, 2:54 pm
| chen wrote: | | And I personally question the propriety and chinuch value of giving children snacks in the sanctuary, given that one is not supposed to eat in a shul. |
There is nothing personal about this as it's discussed in the poskim. Yes, if your synagogue has a sanctuary, you probably have a social hall.
In countless shuls and shtiblech in Europe, America etc. kiddushin are held in the shul itself, where the aron kodesh is, and the "candy man" is a shul fixture (whether he should be the "veggie man" is another topic entirely). This can be done because when the shul is built, it is built al tnai (on condition) that this be allowed. Did you actually think that all the rabbonim of all these shuls and shtiblech were ignorant of the halacha? 
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gryp
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Tue, Mar 21 2006, 2:58 pm
| Quote: | | I think they should call up, well in advance, and arrange for someone to lain for them. Especially in CROWN HEIGHTS for heaven's sake, |
not so simple, believe me.
next year we are buying a megillah for this very reason and we will stay home for megillah. 
broiv am hadras melech??
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Motek
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Tue, Mar 21 2006, 3:02 pm
| GR wrote: | | not so simple, believe me. |
I don't know about simple but doable yes, and taking babies to shul is not an option and is not an act of ahavas Yisrael in my opinion, even if nothing happens because it's a risk and makes other people very apprehensive that they will be sitting there and wasting their time and they worry about where they will hear it properly after it's been ruined.
| Quote: | | broiv am hadras melech?? |
very nice, definitely encouraged
if you can do it, fine, if not - we don't say don't bother with the megilla!
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gryp
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Tue, Mar 21 2006, 3:07 pm
we decided to invite other women with kids/babies to our house for the laining next year.
that way there will be some aspect of broiv am hadras melech.
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hisorerus
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Tue, Mar 21 2006, 4:32 pm
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It's not only kids... we had a man sneeze loudly during Megillah, and yup, a couple people had to hear it again.
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Motek
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Tue, Mar 21 2006, 4:38 pm
| hisorerus wrote: | | It's not only kids... we had a man sneeze loudly during Megillah, and yup, a couple people had to hear it again. |
the baal korei should be alerted and should repeat what people missed
yes, all it takes is one person coughing next to you that drowns it out
but there are halachos about this, reading the words yourself, something to check out, ask a rav
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hisorerus
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Tue, Mar 21 2006, 4:53 pm
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The Baal Korei can also repeat a word for the kid who fell off his chair!
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Motek
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Tue, Mar 21 2006, 4:58 pm
well not for the kid, but for all the people who missed it because of the kid 
re kids, true the baal korei can repeat it if they make noise, but the likelihood of children making noise is faaar higher than for adults
an adult can be 99% sure that he/she won't make any noise that will disturb anyone (the 1% is for an unexpected sneeze or cough that cannot be stifled)
there is no guarantee for a child
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