would you tell someone off

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Would you tell someone off

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would you tell them off

yes

53%

[ 21 ]

46%

[ 18 ]

Total Votes : 39

Thu, Jul 23 2009, 3:42 am

I usually only speak up when kids are doing something dangerous.
just this morning a boy (looked about 12) was riding his bike in the street (with no helmet of course) and swerving between 2 lanes to try to avoid the cars. I told him it's a lot safer to ride on the sidewalk and .... surprisingly the next thing I know , there he is riding on the sidewalk. I think he got scared just from seeing 2 approaching cars and realized I was right.
but I must admit I did recently tell a girl who was littering to please put her snack bag wrapper in the garbage. the garbage can was literally a few feet away and there she was just throwing it down on the floor. this was on the pathway up to my building. unfortunately in this case, she looked at me like I was nuts and I went home without checking to see if she picked it up and put it in the garbage. when I came outside a few minutes later, the wrapper was still on the floor ;(
I say something when if it were reversed and it was my child doing something dangerous, I would hope another parent would say something.

tomorrow

Thu, Jul 23 2009, 4:18 am

Okay, I'll categorize my telling people off. After having been here about eighteen years, I've developped more of an Israeli mouth, rather than the original Midwest super-sweet mouth with which I arrived.

I tell people off for treating others, specifically frum people treating chiloni people, badly. I don't care what happened, it's totally uncalled for, like my previous bus example.

I tell people off when I'm nine months pregnant and there are three-year-olds sitting in their own seat on the bus, I'm carrying a toddler on top of my belly and nobody moves. I once told a man that looked like he was in his early thirties that he could either move or have me on his lap.

I tell children off when they are threatening me or my children. I don't bother much telling them off for littering anymore because they just mouth back to me. If they're mechunachim enough to not mouth off, then they aren't the kids that are littering anyway.

I think that just about covers the categories I can come up with at the moment. I have also potched other people's kids. A bit over a year ago, I was shlepping my then two-year-old on the long, hot walk home from gan. A kid about four or five walked past us, turned around, came back and slapped my daughter across the face, paused and did it again. I have about a two nano-second reaction time on things like that and turn into a big, raging mama bear. I slapped the kid back and chewed her up one side and down the other. Kids that throw rocks at my kids and their parents refused to do anything about it received a similar response.

jerusalem-girl

Thu, Jul 23 2009, 4:21 am

[quote="tomorrow"]
I once told a man that looked like he was in his early thirties that he could either move or have me on his lap.
[quote]
Rolling Laughter

First time I lauged today! Thanks tomorrow.
Which option did he choose?

Mrs. XYZ

Thu, Jul 23 2009, 4:44 am

I agree with Fox all the way here.
I mind my own business. I have enough of a job disciplining and being mechanech my own children.

I remember when I was a kid, I couldn't stand those mommies on the block that were always yelling and bossing around all the kids. I always had the urge to "tell them off" too and say "You're not my mother! Go yell at your own kids!"

Quote:

It's a mitzva to reprimand someone who is doing something wrong.

Do you feel this way too when it comes to tznius issues?

willow

Thu, Jul 23 2009, 4:56 am

ora_43 wrote:

I don't think there's ever a need to "tell someone off." Gently correct, yes. But "telling off" -- no.

If you're assuming that someone is guilty, why should they listen? And what's the chance that criticizing a stranger will have the desired effect?

I do think it's necessary to comment sometimes, but comment, nicely, assuming the best, without throwing accusations of "chillul Hashem" or "what would your mother think" or whatever. For example, instead of "it's such a hillul Hashem that you kids are making so much noise out here late at night. What school do you go to?" something like (smiling apologetically, but speaking with confidence), "Excuse me, but it's very late and many people here are trying to sleep. Do you mind moving to a different area?"

Or instead of assuming a child is treating you a certain way because s/he thinks you aren't frum, just gently point out that their behavior could lead to that assumption.

I don't care how deluded the more cautious approach might sound, I think that in most cases there's no excuse to do otherwise. And an overly cautious, overly naive approach is less risky than jumping in yelling, IMO (less of a risk that you'll do something wrong, that is). And more likely to actually work, instead of just helping us let off steam.

Another point -- we have no idea what other people are going through. Maybe a kid who doesn't want to talk to you is painfully shy. Maybe a teenager acting wild just lost a parent. We have no idea. The words a person might say when they think of a teen as "that obnoxious kid who was just rude for no reason" would be different if they knew the situation better + knew just how much pain the "obnoxious kid" was in + what a crazy situation they were dealing with at home (for example).

And in response to Fox's example specifically - a child shouldn't be corrected in front of their parent except in an extreme situation, that poses an immediate, physical threat. And one should be far more cautious in correcting an older child, and even when it's necessary, should get their side of the story first.

All that said, I definitely think there is room to correct people when necessary. Especially younger children, who just don't know better. If a child tries to take a toy from my child, for example, I will definitely say "sweetheart, that's her toy, please give it back" (despite the occasional talk about rough, wild Israeli kids, this approach does work, in my experience). Or if they aren't being careful, I'll say "please watch out for the baby." Etc.

And if an older child is engaged in dangerous or very obnoxious behavior I would also say something. Ditto for an adult, for that matter. ("very obnoxious" = something along the lines of disturbing the peace - screaming loudly in the stairwell for minutes on end, for example). But again, only gently ("oh, that's just you in the stairwell? I'm so glad, I thought someone was hurt out here. Do you mind keeping it down?" -- I'd rather be the dumb American than the crazy mean American.)

Very well said Ora:) Smile

I was just in a shuir and the Rebbetzin said we have no right to go tell ppl off because we don't know what they are going through.

tomorrow

Thu, Jul 23 2009, 5:01 am

He was a wise man and moved. There was another guy behind him. They do the each-guy-take-one-seat thing frequently and he moved in with the guy behind him. Wise, wise man.

A very unwise man looked at me in "that way" when he was in the aisle standing and I was sitting next to him on a bus, then bent down a bit and pinched my thigh. My split-second reaction would have been to shout at him for being a total hypocrite-pig, but I thought better, since he could badmouth me right back, and stood up just a bit, then elbowed him as hard as I could "where it counts". Boy, did he double over!

Someone here asked about tzniut and if people would tell off others for that. Y'know, I think there's been so much said about it in the is day and age that people do put thought into their dress and if they're doing that problematically, there's a reason for it. I wouldn't say anything about it. I don't say anything about people that munch their way through the shuk, etc. because they know what they're doing and it would take someone far greater than me to get that to change at all.

anonmommy

Thu, Jul 23 2009, 5:09 am

in israel you speak up if you want to survive. this is the mentality here, and you gotta do it with officials, landlords, kids or whoever.
it is the expected norm. the polite american way doesnt work here!
I have told off many kids for being annoying in the park (please go down the slide dont just all sit on top, dont throw sand) and it doesnt help. the kids answer right back. its appalling but there isn't much you can do about it.

Mrs. XYZ

Thu, Jul 23 2009, 5:09 am

Quote:

Someone here asked about tzniut and if people would tell off others for that. Y'know, I think there's been so much said about it in the is day and age that people do put thought into their dress and if they're doing that problematically, there's a reason for it. I wouldn't say anything about it. I don't say anything about people that munch their way through the shuk, etc. because they know what they're doing and it would take someone far greater than me to get that to change at all.

And truthfully, do you really think that those that you do "tell off" are going to change?

tomorrow

Thu, Jul 23 2009, 5:15 am

Well, going back to the situations that I WOULD tell someone off, there's the frum person treating the chiloni badly, and then at least the chiloni would see that we aren't all scum.

Bus behavior, well, it's a survival issue, as is the manner in which my kids are treated, especially when the other side is threatening, hitting, throwing rocks, etc. Aside from the physical danger, I think it's essential that children know that their parents will protect them.

smilingmom

Thu, Jul 23 2009, 7:01 am

GR wrote:

I really would not be happy if someone got involved in a situation where my kids were doing something wrong. I'm the parent, and it's my job to deal with my kids the way I see fit.

The only ones who have my "permission" to deal with my kids are their teachers, present and former, and police, if need be. That's it. If someone sees my kid doing something wrong, I prefer they call and tell me, than berate and harass my child.

I live in NY on a block where we are all concerned about each others kids. All the kids are basically good kids, but it would not bother me if a neighbor saw my DD do something that she knew I would not approve of and tell her to stop.

gryp

Thu, Jul 23 2009, 9:07 am

I do think Israel is completely different than here. There, speaking up is survival skills.

greenfire

Thu, Jul 23 2009, 9:16 am

octopus wrote:

greenfire, while I think it's correct to pull someone over if they acted incorrectly and to quietly correct their behavior (on rare occasion) I don't think it's right to tell someone off most of the time. The teenager in the first scenario probably just rolled his eyes. you really think he learned some grandiose lesson from a gantze speech? eh, if I know teenagers, he didn't....

the first boy actually took a well learned lesson graciously and had something new to think about in how he goes about collecting tzedaka ... and he said thank you ...

the second boy embarrassed the lady in public - in front of his peers - and needed to be stopped in his tracks ... while he might not have cared at first because he was busy showing off how chutzpa he is - he certainly left realizing he did something wrong - not sure though if he cared enough to refrain from this behavior in the future ... but his friends totally ignored him after that as they did not want to be associated with his bad behavior - so I believe they learned how important it is to be a mentsch ...

amother

Thu, Jul 23 2009, 9:23 am

Quote:

I once told a man that looked like he was in his early thirties that he could either move or have me on his lap.

How did you know he didn't have a hidden disability? Just had surgery? I think that is a bit presumptuous to assume that if he is in his mid 30s he must be capable of standing on the bus.

My husband is disabled and in his late 30s. He often gets told off or asked for his seat don't when his crutches are not visible. Once when I was 9 months pregnant and shlepping a suitcase and hubby was sitting in the car waiting for me, man once walked over to the car and yelled at my husband to get up and help his wife. No, the man did not offer to help me himself. shock

I don't think making someone who might look healthy get up for you is a proper course of action. You never know what their situation is.

jerusalem-girl

Thu, Jul 23 2009, 9:27 am

Of course you don't know if a man is healthy, but asking him to get up is perfectly sound. Who's yelling? If he is sick with I don't know what, let him say, "I'm sorry, I'm not feeling so well."

Last edited by jerusalem-girl on Thu, Jul 23 2009, 9:55 am; edited 1 time in total

Seraph

Thu, Jul 23 2009, 9:37 am

jerusalem-girl wrote:

Why are you anonymous?
Don't care for your own opinion, why bother sharing with others?

Of course you don't know if a man is healthy, but asking him to get up is perfectly sound. Who's yelling? If he is sick with I don't know what, let him say, "I'm sorry, I'm not feeling so well."

I dont think that amother must announce on imamother that her husband is disabled.

amother

Thu, Jul 23 2009, 9:43 am

Seraph wrote:

jerusalem-girl wrote:

I dont think that amother must announce on imamother that her husband is disabled.

Thank you. No, I am not required to announce that my husband is disabled more than anyone is required to post using their name about where they live, how many children they have or anything else.

gryp

Thu, Jul 23 2009, 9:51 am

I think we've heard enough stories about (pre-/)teens who suddenly didn't feel so warm to Yiddishkeit after being told off by people who thought they knew better about the situation they were in.

If an adult has something nice or encouraging to say to one of mine, by all means, do so. Anything about "teaching a lesson" or "telling off" is not the place of any adult out there with the exception of a teacher. Not my sister's, not my brother's, not my parents', not my friend's or neighbor's.

No one, excluding the parents or teachers, knows completely what is going on the life of a child. You can really ruin a kid that way. A child is a whole person and may be going through many different hardships or under stress. Most kids grow out of being obnoxious and rude and don't need to be taught a lesson for every little thing they do.

If my kid does something wrong whether it's chutzpah to an adult on the street or littering, you can bet I want to hear about it. I'll deal with it as I see fit. Nobody else has that permission, unless I specifically give it.

And if it ever happens that someone decides to berate my kids, I'll just tell them that we don't like those kind of people and that they don't need to listen to them.

jerusalem-girl

Thu, Jul 23 2009, 9:55 am

amother wrote:

Seraph wrote:

jerusalem-girl wrote:

I dont think that amother must announce on imamother that her husband is disabled.

Thank you. No, I am not required to announce that my husband is disabled more than anyone is required to post using their name about where they live, how many children they have or anything else.

You're right. I'm sorry, I was not thinking at all, was actually on the phone. Shouldn't have wrote that even when distracted. I hope you forgive me.

amother

Thu, Jul 23 2009, 10:00 am

jerusalem-girl wrote:

Of course you don't know if a man is healthy, but asking him to get up is perfectly sound. Who's yelling? If he is sick with I don't know what, let him say, "I'm sorry, I'm not feeling so well."

It doesn't matter how nicely they ask, it still makes a disabled person feel bad for no good reason. I don't think it is the proper thing to do. Obviously you cannot understand how hurtful it is but I see my husband cope with things that others can do and he can't all day every day. I would like it if I knew he also didn't have to be hurt by people throwing in his face (even with a nice tone of voice) what he can't do.

Glad you edited.

greenfire

Thu, Jul 23 2009, 10:13 am

GR wrote:

I think we've heard enough stories about (pre-/)teens who suddenly didn't feel so warm to Yiddishkeit after being told off by people who thought they knew better about the situation they were in.

oh please this is not about frumkeit - but rather mentschlichkeit ...

GR wrote:

And if it ever happens that someone decides to berate my kids, I'll just tell them that we don't like those kind of people and that they don't need to listen to them.

so you're basically telling them it's okay to have poor behavior just because someone other than you reprimanded them ?!?!?!

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