Support group for women who work in very full time jobs?

Fox

Fri, Aug 07 2009, 12:05 pm

Barbara wrote:

cassandra wrote:

Quote:

Were I going to make a closed forum, however, I think my first criteria would be that potential members had to read "Shop Class as Soulcraft" by Matthew B. Crawford (and pass a written test on it!) to tamp down the level of hubris just a bit.

Yes!

And yes to everything else you said.

So I'll bite. What's the book about?

Okay: I'm going to try to be succinct, which, as you know, is virtually impossible for me.

Crawford earned a doctorate in the discipline of Philosophy from University of Chicago, and he was quickly hired by a Washington think-tank. However, his early years had included stints as an electrician and mechanic, and he eventually left the quasi-academic atmosphere of the think-tank to work in and subsequently own a motorcycle repair shop.

His basic thesis is that the "science of management" as founded by Henry Ford and further explicated by the Harvard School of Business, combined with computerization and globalization, are working to erase the advantages of so-called "professional," "white-collar," or "thinking" jobs over the jobs performed by tradesmen and craftsmen.

His pithiest example is that despite a generation of outsourcing of manufacturing and information-based work, if you need a deck built on your house or your plumbing fixed, the Chinese and Indians can't help you. They're mostly in China and India. And your house and plumbing are here.

He describes a number of fields, including large segments of the legal and medical fields, that are increasingly being outsourced, and challenges our view of these professions as promising career paths for young people.

I'm going to try not to sound melodramatic, but I think this is one of the most important "parenting" books available right now. It is not an easy read, I'll grant you! But despite nit-picky faults, which you can read in depth in Amazon reviews, I believe it is a significant piece of handwriting on the wall, and we choose to overlook it at our children's peril. If you read this along with Tom Wolfe's book of essays from 2000-2001, "Hooking Up," with particular attention to "Sorry, But Your Soul Just Died" and "The Great Relearning," I think you can get a pretty good view of what awaits us, b'derech teveh, in the 21st century.

bbmom

Fri, Aug 07 2009, 12:45 pm

I'm not going to state my full opinion here, especially since I wouldn't even come near qualifying for the suggested private forum, but I really think that there is a huge problem here. It's called misunderstanding.

I have plenty of respect for other people's choices in life, I have never ever said anything against professionals on this site and have never looked down on someone's babysitting or housekeeping choices. I fully understand the will to work even when money isn't an "issue" and I understand the difference between working to pay the bills and having a career that is your passion.

However there is real misunderstanding here of other people's work and career choices.

Why is it that full timers who work 40 hours a week are not considered real full timers by the people who work 65 hours a week?

Why is it that women who work away from home cannot let themselves understand how hard some work at home women work.

Why is it that work at home women women constantly feel the need to validate themselves?

Why is it that professional women often feel bashed about there career choices?

Why can't someone post a question about babysitters or housekeepers without people responding that the answer is to quit working?

Why can't someone post "money isn't an issue" without getting answers like "so why do you work?"

Why is it that professions such as therapy and teaching are just "not real professions" to some people?

Why? Maybe because people don't want to understand. Maybe because people don't want to be objective. Maybe because a lawyer [or other professional] can't bring herself to think that being a teacher [or other profession] is hard, long work? Maybe because a teacher [or other professional] can't bring herself to understand what being a lawyer [or other profession] really means.

I understand the reasoning behind a subforum but I don't think it solves the issues that have promoted this campaign. I don't know that those issues can be solved but the lack of respect and understanding for another's career choice is disheartening and sad.

amother

Fri, Aug 07 2009, 12:59 pm

cassandra wrote:

You and she can PM if she wants to reveal herself to you-- it would be kind of funny to have a private forum on here for women who have gone or are going through med school. I am a sahm now so my struggles aren't based on externals but I definitely have internal ones-- I want a career at some point too (and in something other than what I am trained in and have the credentials for), and I am very doubtful that I will be able to do something that I love while still being the kind of mother I want to be because I'd always feel like I wasn't giving everything I can somewhere. I am not one of those rare women who can give 100% of herself four different ways. So yeah, I'd love a forum for cerebral women who have chosen to be sahms but on principle but see themselves being professionally successful one of these days, especially those who finished having their kids in their mid 20s so really do have the world open to them... Anyone else like that here? I don't think it would be a very popular post on the sahm forum...

actually- im one.
im thinking of going for a phd in the near future

Fox

Fri, Aug 07 2009, 1:06 pm

Let me throw out another thought:

You know, G-d willing, we're all going to live to 120, and "being" a working woman, a SAHM, a WAHM, a mother who works at a demanding job, or a mother who works at a demanding job but who spends way too much time on imamother . . . these are not designations like having brown eyes.

Most of us will be several of these at one time or another, and some of us will experience all of them!

If you think that your employment status will remain static throughout your life with regard to all these issues . . . you are clearly not reading . . . anything!

The choice you make in your early 20s may be very different from the choice you make in your 50s! The needs of your family; the type of work available; your interests; the location where you live -- these factors do not remain unchanged, and they will significantly alter how you make choices about your employment and career. So whether we want to admit it or not, we have a great deal in common -- even if we don't experience precisely the same circumstances at the same time in life.

I will share a lesson learned in an atmosphere designed to rival the most dramatic moments on Wall Street: Sorority Rush. The cardinal rule of sorority rush (the process by which new members of a sorority are selected) is "Be nice to everyone; you don't know who her roommate is," meaning that you never, ever treat a potential member with indifference or disdain. She may report this bad treatment to her roommate, the girl whom you want as a member of your sorority more than anything.

Admittedly, this is a rather crude way of learning the lesson of treating others with respect, but, frankly, it's one that a lot of people seem to reach adulthood without grasping: If you can't muster the plain ol' good middos to be respectful of someone else's choice, then be respectful because you might need her help or advice someday or because you want her brother to marry your sister.

ss321

Fri, Aug 07 2009, 6:59 pm

amother wrote:

cassandra wrote:

actually- im one.
im thinking of going for a phd in the near future

wow. so does that mean there are two anon MD's on here? one SAHM and one who is going to be dr.dr. soon?
gosh!
I really wish we had a private forum because I have dozens of questions that are just not applicable on the premed/medstudent/residency forum I post questions on from time to time. but I guess well see what happens. for the time being, I guess people can just continue to be anon.

problem is, for a person like me, since I HAVE revealed to this board what I do, posting anon with very speific questions that are work/career/school related would be very difficult.
I would venture to say the same thing about a poster like notinnjmommy who IIRC is an engineer.
yes, we can just fudge the details a little, but if we really want to share insight or advice, or ask a question that we dont want to be bashed or questioned for, it is difficult (sorry for singling you out notinnjmommy, it just doesnt seem like there are many engineers on here)

ss321

Fri, Aug 07 2009, 7:18 pm

fox, while I understand what you are saying and you are undoubtedly one of the "wiser" posters on here without doubt, and I think most members really respect what you have to say- you dont post random short cryptic comments-when you do post, it is always something worth reading, I truly do not think anyone of us who is hoping for this private subforum to compare notes/ comisserate, etc, is wanting it because "we" are "better" than "them," (who are "we"? and who are "them?")
after all - I think these 5 pages have pretty much established that it has nothing to do with level of education. choc moose is a legal secretary. there are two amothers who are physicians. legal secretary (if that is the same as a paralegal, I honestly do not know), is an associate degree. MD is a BA+Graduate degree+(in most cases)Postgraduate training. is anyone doubting choc moose takes her career seriously on here? I dont think so! I think that she has alot of insight and advice to offer having been a working mom for many years, and being a working mom who really loves what she does. not one who does it begrudgingly because the only reason she works is because she had to find something to do to supplement her DH's income.
I also think that (either in here or in the other thread), we have established that no one means to offend anyone who is a WAHM, working at home is a tremendous priviledge but it comes with its own set of unique challenges. that is why there is a WAHM subforum. however, WAHMs should realize that working outside the home also comes with its own unique set of challenges (such as barbara's faxing homework example, meeting with principal example, or my not having a phone for 4 days example). and it is frustrating when the "solution" given when we express our extreme frustration with some of these issues, even within the working women forum, becomes things like "cant you work from home?" or "why do you need to work, if your DH makes enough money and you pay full tuition?" it is not about a need and perhaps that is where the line should be drawn. I think the 80% of Yes's in my survey (in the other thread) are all from people who really take alot of pride in what they do, are passionate about it, and want to be able to discuss that without comments such as "a womans place is really in the home, and that is the ideal." we want a haven from that.

I have a tremendous amount of respect for all SAHMs. especially after having spent an entire year at home with my kids just now. Honestly, I could NOT do it. so as much as I used to often look around and say "oh man, this is soo stressful, life would be so much easier if I were a SAHM"-truth is, grass is always greener-and after doing it for a year I realized with full certainty - that maybe for her or her or her, it is easier, but for me, it would not fit, and it just made me more confident and strong in my decision to pursue my chosen career path.

now with regard to WAHMs. Also, a world of respect. I couldnt do that either. I need to compartmentalize. it is hard enough to return a page with one of my kids talking in the car. I cannot imagine running my life like that all day, with a baby at home or whatever! No I do not think it is any easier. just different. I totally disagree with choc moose's opinon that it might be easier since you dont have to get dressed. if you teleconference at all, that is not the situation at all. and anyway, I "work" (ok school, whatever) outside the home, and trust me, getting dressed and made up for work, is only done at home if I will be driving. otherwise, any minimal makeup is applied on the train. so I dont even understand how "getting all dressed" is relevant, unless you are a news reporter or litigation lawyer and dressing in a gorgeous suit and full makeup is part and parcel with the job.

and bbmom, you make some excellent points. really.
I think any doctor lawyer, secretary, engineer (just picking professions that people have mentioned on here that they do), should try teaching for a day or a week, and then see how difficult it truly is. I know I could never, ever do it.
one of my best friends is a special ed teacher at a school in flatbush with ichud. I could NEVER EVER do what she does, not even for one hour. I would lose my patience in a flash and I have so much respect for what she does.
I dont get why there is so much animosity on here, this pent up anger. I really dont. but it bugs me alot. I think the subforum is necessary because alot of us are sick of getting bashed for making choices (working long hours voluntarily, and actually enjoying it and being passionate about it, hiring someone else to care for our kids for a given amt of time, etc) and sick of having to post anonymously within the working women forum to avoid being bashed elsewhere.

ora_43

Sat, Aug 08 2009, 3:12 pm

So since everyone seems to be commenting regardless of eligibility for this proposed forum, I will too.

The guidelines proposed here sound strange to me, mostly because it seems to be breaking down into "people who want to work" vs. "people who have to work" instead of anything that would be practically useful. Right now, it sounds like you'd allow someone who's currently a SAHM to join, if she plans a career in the future and/or understands demanding careers and so wouldn't bash, while someone who is currently working 45+ hours a week, but only for the money, and really thinks mothers should be home with the kids if possible would not be allowed to join.

That seems illogical, given that on every "unique to work long hours out of the home moms" issue mentioned so far (parent/teacher meetings, appointments with repairmen and the like, finding the best nanny, etc), the second woman would have a lot more useful information than the first.

Basically, it seems like you're trying to set up a forum of people with the same ideology, more than a forum of people with the same life circumstances. From my (admittedly limited) experience with private forums, it's generally more useful to have people with wildly different ideologies who are going through the same thing.

I also agree with whoever it was who pointed out that help sometimes comes from someone you wouldn't expect to understand... for example, some people who are SAHMs used to have demanding careers, some who only work 30 hours a week do work 50 hour weeks during certain times of the year, etc -- these people could all be sources of good advice.

Ultimately it's up to the people who would actually be in the forum to decide how to balance the potential for getting useful advice and/or understanding from people who don't fit the criteria, with the potential for being "bashed" by those who don't fit the criteria (although don't forget that you can never make it so specific that nobody will disagree with your choices - eg. even among those who work 50 hours a week and don't need the money, the issue of frum/jewish/non-Jewish nannies can still be controversial...).

mommy4

Sat, Aug 08 2009, 9:17 pm

ora_43 wrote:

So since everyone seems to be commenting regardless of eligibility for this proposed forum, I will too.

The guidelines proposed here sound strange to me, mostly because it seems to be breaking down into "people who want to work" vs. "people who have to work" instead of anything that would be practically useful. Right now, it sounds like you'd allow someone who's currently a SAHM to join, if she plans a career in the future and/or understands demanding careers and so wouldn't bash, while someone who is currently working 45+ hours a week, but only for the money, and really thinks mothers should be home with the kids if possible would not be allowed to join.

That seems illogical, given that on every "unique to work long hours out of the home moms" issue mentioned so far (parent/teacher meetings, appointments with repairmen and the like, finding the best nanny, etc), the second woman would have a lot more useful information than the first.

forumBasically, it seems like you're trying to set up a forum of people with the same ideology, more than a of people with the same life circumstances. From my (admittedly limited) experience with private forums, it's generally more useful to have people with wildly different ideologies who are going through the same thing.

I also agree with whoever it was who pointed out that help sometimes comes from someone you wouldn't expect to understand... for example, some people who are SAHMs used to have demanding careers, some who only work 30 hours a week do work 50 hour weeks during certain times of the year, etc -- these people could all be sources of good advice.

Ultimately it's up to the people who would actually be in the forum to decide how to balance the potential for getting useful advice and/or understanding from people who don't fit the criteria, with the potential for being "bashed" by those who don't fit the criteria (although don't forget that you can never make it so specific that nobody will disagree with your choices - eg. even among those who work 50 hours a week and don't need the money, the issue of frum/jewish/non-Jewish nannies can still be controversial...).

Natural parenting is an example of a forum for women with the same ideology and it works well. It´s a haven where these similiar minded women won´t get bashed but it´s not locked. Maybe the same thing could work for this career/professionals forum.

Fox

Sun, Aug 09 2009, 1:26 am

ss321 wrote:

you dont post random short cryptic comments-when you do post,

I think everyone can agree with that! My random, cryptic comments usually go on for paragraphs! LOL

I don't mean to imply that you or anyone here thinks of herself as "better" because of her secular educational level, her professional training, or her place in the pecking order of the secular world. However, it's a serious risk when people don't have any checks or balances to the attitudes they absorb in their day-to-day work.

A Torah-observant Jew can and should enjoy his/her work; enjoy making a parnosseh; and feel that he/she is making a contribution. But unlike much of the upper-middle-class secular world, we should not be defined by our jobs. It's easy to say, "But I'm not!" and proceed to give examples. But if you work daily in a demanding job or profession, especially with non-Jews for whom their professional lives are their lives to some extent, it is very, very hard to avoid letting some of those attitudes seep into your value system.

So while a forum can be declared a "safe haven" and monitored to keep out obvious trolls or others who are stridently advancing some contrary view, it might be a good thing to have people around to remind you that you are not a doctor, lawyer, or Indian chief; you are a bas Torah who happens to enjoy working in that capacity.

ss321 wrote:

I dont get why there is so much animosity on here, this pent up anger. I really dont. but it bugs me alot.

Ah, that's very simple. Because people are insecure about their own abilities and ambivalent about their own choices. Someone who is perfectly secure and happy with herself may think you are wrong; she may even point out why she thinks you are wrong if you ask. But she won't be strident or hostile about it.

However, this cuts both ways, and I see that sometimes "bashees" engage in online behavior that draws bashers like bees to flowers. On the topic of working women, there are a handful of posters who have, no doubt unwittingly, created online personas that "break the rules" of women's communication (Lakoff, 1975), which results in making them frequent targets. Even many of their relatively pareve posts make unnecessary mention of glamorous or high-status jobs or professions; they never use qualifying modifers; they never recant an impulsive or ill-considered position; they rarely use humor aimed at themselves or their foibles. They expect readers to infer information based on general statements about their job or industry.

Let's take the example of an OP who asks for babysitting advice. If she works full-time at an office/hospital/pushcart, she needs to make that clear. And so what if someone says, "Can't you work at home?" or "Why are you working if you don't need the money?" First of all, those questions aren't exactly the equivalent of bear-baiting if the OP hasn't made her circumstances clear. The OP politely answers, "No, my particular job doesn't permit me to work at home." or "Because my DH and I have consulted daas Torah and have decided that it is best for me to work at this job/pursue this degree/tend this pushcart." The OP doesn't have to defend her decision, and she shouldn't allow herself to be drawn into such an argument, whether by someone looking to make trouble or someone who just doesn't "get" the OP's problem.

And if the OP is genuinely secure in her choices, she won't be bothered by such questions or by people who don't "get" her circumstances. She'll realize their advice is skewed by their lack of similar experience, take what she can from it, and move along.

Online communities are generally starting points, not ending points. Advice or support on imamother regarding pot roast, marriage, or toilet training cannot by definition take into consideration a complete understanding of the OP, her particular circumstances, community, and personality. In some cases, this is because the OP neglects or chooses not to supply information that might result in better advice and responses. In some cases this is a result of the lack of experience from the respondents.

My response to this has been to tailor my expectations. I look for information that is of use to me and discard the rest. I consider it important to listen to people who've made different decisions, but I don't debate my choices with them -- they know virtually nothing about my real life! And when a SAHM who's half my age details her after-dinner cleaning routine and denounces those lazy bums who lounge around in the evening . . . well, I don't consider it bashing. Perhaps she'll be in my WWW shoes someday, midda keneged midda, or perhaps not. Either way, getting into a sniping war won't magically imbue her with greater empathy.

Seraph

Sun, Aug 09 2009, 6:33 am

Fox wrote:

And if the OP is genuinely secure in her choices, she won't be bothered by such questions or by people who don't "get" her circumstances. She'll realize their advice is skewed by their lack of similar experience, take what she can from it, and move along.

I have nothing to do with such a forum, however:

It has nothing to do with being secure with your choices. I'm in the NP section and whereas I'm totally secure in my choices, it gets rather tedious to have to EVERY THREAD answer the same questions over and over about why and how.
I can understand therefore a working mom not feeling like answering these questions every time she posts something unrelated. Its annoying but not because of insecurities at all, its just annoying to have to repeat yourselves over and over. I'm sure these working moms wouldnt mind discussing it in another thread, but don't feel like explaining themselves in a thread about a specific situation.

creativemommyto3

Sun, Aug 09 2009, 9:00 am

Seraph wrote:

Fox wrote:

Yeah,but working mothers in and outside the house can give each other moral support and even advice. Some of us have a different outlook on working but that doesn't mean that we are bashing.. sometimes ppl making assumptions on what bashing really means.
There really isnt' a reason to have this forum closed just like the WAHM forum isn't either.. Sometimes ppl even think that WAHM is much easier than outside.. Just ask ppl like Mrs. K or Mimivan .. They work SUPER hard and to say that they don't understand lack of time with children, not always putting them to bed each night is off base.. especially since not all doctors work in shifts.. some even have their practice in an apartment right off their home .. some are salaried workers with very set hours.. etc etc.

bbmom

Sun, Aug 09 2009, 9:28 am

Barbara wrote:

Right.

I consider teachers to be professionals, but, WADR to them, I don't think they have the same issues that I do. Their schedules are largely the same as their kids' schedules. Even if they do work in the evening, they still have time to schedule dentist appts for their kids, or to drop things off at the dry cleaners. All of these things are more difficult for me.

Example -- I want to meet with the principal at DS' school. They keep telling me to come in on a certain day at 11 am. 11 am????? So I can't go to work first, and it will be afternoon before I get in? What's wrong with 8:30? Teachers aren't going to get that; its summer. A lot of WAHMs aren't going to get that, if they can flex. Even people with 9-5 jobs with lots of vacation and personal days and sick days aren't going to get it. OTOH the owner of a small business definitely WOULD get it. Choc Moose probably would as well. So its not professional vs non-professional. Its types of work environment.

Crayon, WADR, even referring to a thread as *safe haven* won't help. I've no doubt that you would do an admirable job cleaning up the venom. But that's not going to stop people from reading and attacking on other threads and in other contexts.

You know what, I really have nothing against starting a private thread. I still think the misunderstandings are funny.

How many teachers are able to meet with the principal and her daughter's teacher at 11 am? She should leave your daughter alone in a classroom so she can leave in the middle of class to discuss her daughter's progress? I wonder what you'd say if you heard that happened...

You missed your daughter's PTA? So does every single teacher in my school who has a daughter learning there. Every single year. You know why? Because she's doing PTA with you.

You missed your daughter's siddur party? So did your other daughter's teacher, only she wasn't working at some high powered firm in Manhattan, she was three doors down trying to tune out the sweet little singing voices so she could concentrate on teaching her class the next passuk.

So next time a parent calls me at 10:00 pm for a make up PTA or to dicuss something or whatever, I'll tell her, I'm sorry I only work 35 hours a week and it's late, so it doesn't really matter to me that this is the only time you can talk, because I don't want to.

Oh and I'll stop preparing new, interesting lessons, and I'll definitely stop marking tests. Of course report cards are out of the question because they take way too much time. Or maybe I'll give your daughter a few days of free periods during which she'll learn nothing so that I can do that stuff on the clock and actually get paid for it.

Summer? I have worked every single summer since I started teaching because I don't get paid enough to go two months without salary. This summer I worked from home which essentially meant I was up crazy hours because I wasn't making enough money to hire a babysitter and working from with a kvetchy baby just doesn't work unless she's sleeping.

Vacation? Yep, a week before Pesach because I don't make enough money to hire someone else to clean my house. Erev Yom Tov? Same thing. Fridays I'm home by 12:30 but I make up for that by working Sundays.

DD' sick? Babysitter canceled? Should I leave your daughter without a substitute or a prepared lesson or should I bring my daughter to school? (Remember the uproar when an Imamother posted that this happened?)

Let me just clarify - I'm not offended nor did I take anything said here to heart. I really didn't. This post was written in half seriousness half jest. I just think that just like you feel misunderstood by women who have different types of jobs than you, they feel misunderstood by you. If you need a private forum that will only include women exactly like you, then the WAHM forum should be private, the teachers forum should be private, and just like there should be a thread for "professional women who work very full time" there should also be a private thread for "women who work part time", a private thread for "women who work full time but aren't professionals", and for "women who work because they have to pay the bills and not because they love their job".