temp move to TA for job opportunity (warning - long)

amother

Tue, Aug 11 2009, 1:57 pm

I dont want to reveal too much info on this site, we have not even discussed the possibility with our parents or closest friends.

My husband works for a big firm that has a branch in Tel Aviv. He has been offered the chance of a promotion if he brings the skill he has to a newly established department in Israel, and it would be temporary, for 1 or 2 years. The move, like I said, entails a promotion, which means a big raise, plus the opportunity for the same bonuses he can get right now.

This question is VERY very basic, because right now, this is just something we are throwing out there for basic feedback. A colleague of his was offered something similar in a large European city (I think Amsterdam?) and turned it down. It is very neat that my DH has been offered this in Tel Aviv, if it were anywhere else in the world, we would not consider this whatsoever!!!

We are settled, we own a house (which I guess we would consider renting?), our kids are happy (they are not in older grades so it would not be uprooting them from all their lifelong friends, etc. think like pre1a and below), and all our roots are here in America. But then again, this = raise. and also, the experience would be very interesting. we are young.... so on one hand there are many issues, on the other hand, it might be really amazing.

I want to know- (for now)!

Where, in the Tel Aviv vicinity (ie, within 30 minutes of downtown), would we hypothetically feel comfortable? We are from New York, so we don't mind the busy-ness of a city like Tel Aviv at all, but to me tel aviv is very irreligious save a few dots on the map. is that wrong? which neighborhoods/suburbs can we look into? and does anyone have any type of general idea of prices for renting a home or apartment in these areas? It has to have at least 3 bedrooms. I am not even going to say what our "budget" is because if we did this, a lot would change in terms of what we are earning, and also, I am clueless about Israeli real estate.

I would also be working, if we made this move, I have two "connections' and would be able to find something OK in my field.
that leads me to my next question-
a live in/ housekeeper for our baby. how do people do that in Israel? or do they?

and commuting. do most people take the train everywhere? I think we would both be working near train stations, but then again, I don't know how close the neighborhoods are to the train stations! We have two cars here. and for convenience sake we would probably want at least 1 if not 2 cars there too. They dont need to be anything close size wise to what we have (SUVs would cost tons more in gas) but we do need cars. Don't think it is worth it to buy since this would be a short term move (1 or 2 years) but does anyone know about renting or leasing cars?

And then I wont even get into the issue of schools.
I guess unless this really was to come to fruition.

Anyway though, if people could give me some basic info on those items I would appreciate it alot.

Thanks

amother

Tue, Aug 11 2009, 6:14 pm

Hi everyone, its the OP again.

I really dont care so much if it is anglo or not. we both speak fluent hebrew, and being that this would be a short term thing, not like buying a house and living in a neighborhood for the next 20 years, really, I care more about it being centrally located, pretty, safe, and in a frum neighborhood, than what "type" of neighbors I have (ie americans).

someone mentioned a metapelet (someone who will come to my house)- will she clean? how much does someone like that cost? being that we wont have family around or our regular babysitters from the neighborhood, having someone who is trustworthy and dependable would be absolutely critical

also- general idea about prices? what are themore pricy areas, what are the less expensive areas? and can someone give me a general idea for 3 bedrooms or more? I am assuming for a place like zichron yaakov (farther out) we could get "more for our money" ie a house similar to what we have here, rather than in places like ramat gan or bnei brak where it would be an apartment. is that a correct assumption?

any more info or advice would be appreciated! we dont need to make a decision today or tomorrow, there is no pressure, but I just told my DH I would do some reading online and some basic research into the idea and we can come to a basic agreement about where we stand! thanks all u israelis.

amother

Tue, Aug 11 2009, 6:33 pm

beilariva wrote:

How far are you willing to travel? You might want to consider Zichron Yaakov which has many anglo and is about a 40 minute drive from TA.

sorry, I do not want to PM anyone just yet, this is very preliminary, DH just brought it up yesterday. it might not even happen. but I have a question about Zichron Yaakov and similar places. Like I said before, we are in New York and so we are very used to the cityish feel of things. if being 40 minutes out means a community where we would feel comfortable (hashkafah wise, lots of similar people, good school and shuls etc) that is all important, but if it has a more small town feel (as opposed to like bnei brak which doesnt, if you know what I mean), then we might feel very stressed in such a place - not having a restaurant to run to or a supermarket late at night, a main street (like 13th avenue in boro park just for example, since that is "well known") where you can really get so much done, etc.

sorry if my questions are very vague, just trying to get a very general idea here about if this is even feasible.

amother

Tue, Aug 11 2009, 6:40 pm

this question is more for shalhevet since you were nice enough to post the map but really for anyone.

first of all, thanks. I do know where places ARE in general, but I dont know what "types" (as in religious or not religious) live where!
which places that are closer to the coast (ie, closer to tel aviv proper), have frum neighborhoods with semi affordable housing options? I honestly dont know what real estate goes for in israel, but I guess under about 2000 or 2500 dollars a month for 3 bedrooms 2 bathrooms or more. the options of bnei brak and ramat gan seem to make the most sense to us because there is less commuting (hence potentially less gas) involved, but I dont know. to me, Bnei Brak seems too frum (and we are NOT "modern orthodox" by any stretch, we are just "regular" Orthodox I guess - DH wears a black hat, I would say I am a "with it" bais Yaakov Girl, etc), am I totally off base? It seems like every other woman there shaves her head and has seamed stalkings, which is a bit too much for us. Although location wise, both of those seem to make sense for this period of time. do you know what kind of prices we arelooking at? if they are more expensive, and living further away from TA means saving more, that might make more sense, we do not want to blow all our savings on this one gig.
Thanx

shalhevet

Wed, Aug 12 2009, 2:19 am

amother wrote:

If you are in a frum area you will probably be able to find someone suitable - if/when you decide to come advertise then in local newsheets. If you want someone full time who will also clean, I think something in the range of 20-30 shekels an hour, paid monthly.

Quote:

also- general idea about prices? what are themore pricy areas, what are the less expensive areas? and can someone give me a general idea for 3 bedrooms or more? I am assuming for a place like zichron yaakov (farther out) we could get "more for our money" ie a house similar to what we have here, rather than in places like ramat gan or bnei brak where it would be an apartment. is that a correct assumption?

Yes, but sorry I don't know prices.

shalhevet

Wed, Aug 12 2009, 2:36 am

OK, I'll try and help about the areas, but I think there are imamothers who are more familiar than I am - I don't live in those areas so don't take what I say as being accurate.

Bnei Brak - it is not all homogeneous. There are some mixed chareidi/MO neighbourhoods. You will have the 'big city' life in terms of pizza places open till late, lots of shops etc. You might have trouble with schooling - chareidi chadarim and Israeli BY may not be your idea of ideal schools. There are mamlachti dati schools in BB too, but those might not be frum enough for you in other ways.

Ramat Gan - has a fairly big MO population, and also some chareidi (remember it borders on BB and the borders are basically artificial, it is one urban expanse). Many non-religious too. Again - big city life (although your choice of mehadrin restaurants may be more limited). Givat Shmuel also has lots of MO.

Petach Tikva - I still think this is your best option (again, in light of the limited knowledge I have - do more research). There are strong MO/chareidi mixed areas like Kiryat Ganim and Kfar Avraham. You say you know Hebrew so Anglo areas are not important for you, but you should know that Israeli/Anglo is not just a language difference but a mentality difference. The way you describe yourself I cannot see your kids in Bnei Brak chareidi education, especially as you are not planning on adapting to Israeli culture but going back to America. In PT you may have more likeminded parents. Also for English lessons, there may be other children in the class from English-speaking homes, so that they have dovrei Anglit (English speakers) groups. OTOH, you could always get private lessons for your children.

There are imamothers here who have lived in PT. I hope they can give you more information.

Marion

Wed, Aug 12 2009, 2:39 am

If I was in your shoes, I would find out if the company would lease him a car. It could be part of his salary package, and would cost you (in terms of maybe less take home pay) a LOT LESS than what leasing a car privately would cost. I don't know how many kids you have (it sounds like at least 2), but I would assume that if you'll be here for a few years you'd want a car that could handle luggage for tiyulim & such, as well as just the daily commute. For that you'd be looking at at least a class 2 car (classes as determined by mas hachnasa)...a hatchback probably wouldn't work. (I say this as a driver of a Hyundai Getz who is forever grateful to her employer for providing a vehicle! I have 2 kids, and we can fit everything in to go for Shabbat, but I think if we had bigger bags for a longer trip the trunk wouldn't be quite big enough!) To give you an idea of private lease pricing, my Getz would have required at least 35,000NIS downpayment, and that would have left me with a monthly payment of over 2,000NIS, as well as roughly 250NIS/monthly (3000NIS/year) in insurance & licensing fees, and the cost of gas (for arguments' sake, let's say 1000NIS/month). The cost of my vehicle to me in terms of loss of take home pay is 1000NIS/month...what I'd be paying just for gas if I had leased it privately (which I couldn't afford to do). In your shoes I would seriously ask for the car as a benefit, and "make do" with the single vehicle. The busses (especially in the TA area) are very good, and very reliable (unless there's a strike)...and you could always commute at least one way together. Also note that employers are obligated to provide funds for transportation expenses to and from work, up to a maximum of 22NIS/day. Most employers choose to do this by [re]paying the cost of a bus pass.

Tamiri

Wed, Aug 12 2009, 2:45 am

amother wrote:

I would think that Petach Tikva would be a great option for you, based on the "level of frumkeit" you described. There are plenty of black-hatters there, without being "too frum" as you describe Bnai Brak. I think you can find a house (not apt) to rent for $2000-$2500 which is a very generous allowance. In Israel, many jobs come with a car (it's a lease) so your DH may want to explore that angle and thus save you the cost of one car (the company pays for the insurance, gas etc. and the employee pays a part of the lease plus a certain percentage to tax - it's not for everyone but it may be a good option). There are plenty of Anglos, with Anglo organizations such as Emuna for women. There is a vibrant Young Israel which is NOT black hat, but which may have some black hat members/rabbi.
You mention "blowing your savings" but with a relo, in my experience, the company picks up part of the tab. You have to find out these things. Human resources can probably help.
Instead of viewing this from a purely gashmi POV, why not view it as Hashem sending you a lifeline? An amazing chance to taste Israel, which you may not have thought of before? Think that you are CHOSEN. So, should someone chosen hesitate for a minute? This sounds like an amazing opportunity. I would not worry for one second (if I had a budget of $2-2.5K/month rent) about where to live. Your options are practically endless. Even Jerusalem, if he's willing to travel. The country is TINY.
Places which come to mind besides Petach Tikva where you will have Anglos and can wear a black hat:
Nof Ayalon
Shalavim (not sure they have rentals there)
Raanana
I am sure there are more places, but those few come to mind easily

Tamiri

Wed, Aug 12 2009, 3:17 am

Of course, how could I have forgotten RBS?
FWIW, your DH may opt for public transportation (TA is a MESS to drive into and out of during rush hour, parking [unless the employer provides it] is impossible and besides there are all these plans to limit car entry into the city some time in the future) and leave you with "the car" during the day so the 2-car issue may not be an issue at all. For public transportation, you would probably want to live in one of the cities mentioned, as opposed to Nof Ayalon which I noted as that is a Yishuv (more "frummer" people than some other yishuvim).

amother

Wed, Aug 12 2009, 8:09 am

amother wrote:

We have friends who moved to Israel as part of a job and eventually made aliyah from within Israel.
Just so you should be aware, your dh would be here n a work visa but for you to find work (legally, unless you or your parents were born in Israel) could possibly be complicated.

the work I would be doing would be an internship with a very low salary but would look very good in my chosen field. I would be considered a student essentially not an employee. that is the "catch."

realistically, we have established that this will 100% not turn into Aliya (unless Moshiach comes).
1. DH's company is offering him temporary relocation. He cant stay on there permanently (nor does he want to)
2. In order for me to work in Israel (other than a temporary type set up that I can do - spoke to someone who yesterday), I would have to start over completely in my field. there is no "reciprocity" basically across intl borders.
3. we have little family in Israel and are tied in ways other than just our jobs to America. such as, just put a ton of money into remodeling our house.

In other words, it is not something even on our radar. however, to have the opportunity for a couple of years just being given on a golden platter like this, that is another story.

Tamiri

Wed, Aug 12 2009, 8:19 am

הוּא הָיָה אוֹמֵר, עֲשֵׂה רְצוֹנוֹ כִּרְצוֹנֶךָ, כְּדֵי שֶׁיַּעֲשֶׂה רְצוֹנְךָ כִּרְצוֹנוֹ. בַּטֵּל רְצוֹנְךָ מִפְּנֵי רְצוֹנוֹ, כְּדֵי שֶׁיְּבַטֵּל רְצוֹן אֲחֵרִים מִפְּנֵי רְצוֹנֶךָ. הִלֵּל אוֹמֵר, אַל תִּפְרוֹשׁ מִן הַצִּבּוּר, וְאַל תַּאֲמֵן בְּעַצְמָךְ עַד יוֹם מוֹתָךְ, וְאַל תָּדִין אֶת חֲבֵרָךְ עַד שֶׁתַּגִּיעַ לִמְקוֹמוֹ, וְאַל תֹּאמַר דָּבָר שֶׁאִי אֶפְשָׁר לִשְׁמוֹעַ שֶׁסּוֹפוֹ לְהִשָּׁמַע. וְאַל תֹּאמַר לִכְשֶׁאֶפָּנֶה אֶשְׁנֶה, שֶׁמָּא לֹא תִפָּנֶה:

Very Happy

amother

Wed, Aug 12 2009, 8:47 am

I hear u tamiri.
That might be the ideal. But if DH signs a contract, there is no stipulation about maybe staying on. And my job I would have to start from ground zero. And family is in america.

I know I will get tomatoes thrown at me for saying this but we are not looking into the option of Aliya. I am only bringing that up in response to what someone posted. it is not on our radar, not hashkafically, not financially, not professionally. I know some people will say that is tantamount to Apikorsus but it is just the world that we live in.

Another issue I have not brought up (because discussing it no offense with a bunch of anonymous women wont make a difference) is the Halachic issue of moving with the intention of it being temporary. DH and I have lots of friends who "moved" to Israel after getting married to "learn for a few years" (in quotes because for many of them learning = all expense paid extended honeymoon while 'roughing it' in american Israel) and not only did DH stay in his yeshiva here for hashkafic reasons, but for halachic ones as well based eitzos from a few people. He will need to discuss with his rov (once he gets more details about this potential position) if this is even feasible and if it would be considered along the lines of going there on a business trip or if it is actually considered moving. if it is considered moving, he cannot take the position.