Helping Non-jew coworker with jewish g/f

amother

Tue, Aug 11 2009, 3:13 pm

My coworker (non jewish) asked me today what holiday is sept 18/19. I told him Rosh Hashana. He asked for suggestions of what to get his girlfriend (jewish but obviously not too religious) for the holiday. I said a honey dish and sent him a coupla links to eichlers and the like. But now I'm not sure. Is that wrong? I'm not promoting the relationship, I'm sure it'll continue regardless. And I'm just not sure if I should say s/t esp since I'm the quiet pushover type, esp at work (I'm the only frum/jewish person in my office, and have almost zero friends here). What would you do?

shalhevet

Tue, Aug 11 2009, 4:04 pm

Personally I certainly wouldn't have helped him.

If you feel you are able to I would talk to a rav about if you should try and persuade him to leave her. If that's not an option at least don't give any help.

Even if in the end it makes no difference, we are still answerable for our actions, and any part we might have in a sin.

NotInNJMommy

Tue, Aug 11 2009, 5:08 pm

I would just play dumb, and not offer assistance.

ie. "I don't know. Hmmm" and change topics

I wouldn't say anything unless a rav really felt I should DO something actively to push them apart.

Of course, hindsight is 20/20. For a couple mos, I had a similar thing at work, but he didn't ask me for any gift ideas. I just gave a very parve response (oh...hmm...ok...) when he told me he was seeing a Jewish girl, and in private, davenned they'd break up soon.

NotInNJMommy

Tue, Aug 11 2009, 5:39 pm

amother wrote:

NotInNJMommy wrote:

I would just play dumb, and not offer assistance.

ie. "I don't know. Hmmm" and change topics

Totally makes sense, so then he goes around that orthodox women don't know anything abt their religion..

No, certainly doesn't think that. It was a quite non-awkward interchange as we sit next to each other and work on lots of things together.

Or better yet "I'd have to think more about that..."

Listen, I don't care what someone thinks I know about my religion. I'm 99.999% sure he knows that I know a whole lot more about my religion than he does bc he sees me live my religion.

ora_43

Tue, Aug 11 2009, 5:40 pm

amother wrote:

NotInNJMommy wrote:

I would just play dumb, and not offer assistance.

ie. "I don't know. Hmmm" and change topics

Totally makes sense, so then he goes around that orthodox women don't know anything abt their religion..

He's asking for gift suggestions, not religious education. If he asks "what is the meaning of Rosh Hashana" or "why do you believe in God" or something of the like I'm sure it's OK to give a real answer, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

amother

Wed, Aug 12 2009, 6:49 am

OP here.

"He's asking for gift suggestions, not religious education".

Are you saying that to answer real questions it's ok but not gift suggestions? I don't talk to my coworkers much but when they asked questions about what is a mezuza, do I wear skirts only bec I'm orthodox, kosher related questions, one question on shiva, then kol isha, and even a co worker who thinks there is a chance (virtually non-existent, if you ask me) that he is jewish bec he thinks he might be from a family of morranos, well, I answered all those questions. fully. bec I think its better for them to have answers to their questions then to continue being ignorant and prejudiced.

smilingmom

Wed, Aug 12 2009, 7:11 am

I think what you are doing is fantastic, anytime you can help someone Jewish identify with Judiasm or teach someone non-Jewish about the basics, it is great.
Appropriate gift giving shows a respect for the other person's culture and religion.
Remember, you are the goodwill ambassador for all of us.

energy11

Wed, Aug 12 2009, 8:15 am

I wouldn't suggest any gift idea...I think it encourages them to cement their relationship. I do talk about judaism with coworkers and they find it fascinating.I don't have a problem with that and believe the jewish people should bring "Light" to the world (or lagoyim).However, in the above context, I would no bring up any idea of suggestion to encourage their relationship.
We live in the US and my nephew recently married a portorican girl. My son had a bar mitsva and my daughter a wedding, and I made sure to tell him that he could come but she is NOT welcome. (By the way this boy is not secular, he grew up in a frum family).
Tough...

amother

Wed, Aug 12 2009, 8:52 am

To the OP, I think you did the right thing.

I have worked with MANY interfaith couples over the years. Many many times, the husband isn't Jewish, but the wife is, so the kids are 100% halachically Jewish. We need to do whatever we can to make sure that these JEWISH kids are at least given the chance to become active and involved Jews with a positive Jewish identity.

In college I had a lot of friends with non-Jewish fathers who became frum later in life and now are living 100% frum lifestyles.

My SIL is one of these "half-Jewish" kids, with a Jewish mother and she has a very negative identity. In fact, if you ask her if she is Jewish she will tell you she is not. It's very sad and I think she will be raising her (and my brother's!!!) kids the same way. She already told me her kids would not have a bris, bar mitzvah, or go to Hebrew school. My brother and her fight about this all the time.

The guy knows that you are an Orthodox and knowledgeable Jew and that is why he asked you. It would be really weird if you pretended you didn't know. And yes, if he is thoughtful enough to think about how to celebrate her holiday it appears that he is serious about her.

Honestly if he didn't get the info from you he probably could have just googled it and gotten plenty of info.

(anon because of personal details)

amother

Wed, Aug 12 2009, 10:47 am

NotInNJMommy wrote:

There's a difference IMHO between an intermarriage with kids that has already happened and just a romantic relationship.

If you are trying to push them apart until they get married and as soon as they are married they are embraced you are too late.

My brother-in-law and his sister were raised by non-religious parents but send to an Orthodox day school in NYC. The sister married a Catholic boy from a religious family. Her family (since they were not religious) accepted him, his family did not accept her. Even after the children were born his family would not accept her. They started out with a pre-marriage agreement of an xmas tree in the house (that lasted one year), no religious education for the kids a medical bris only and no bar/t mitzvahs. By the time the kids were ready for Sunday school (age 5-6) the husband said ok. By the time the oldest kids were 7 or 8 the husband had converted to Judaism. The nicer family wins out again!

If the OP's coworker was the Jew maybe trying to m'karev her would work and get her to break up the couple, but in this case she may never have met the Jew. It would be totally inappropriate for her to break up the couple, even if she can do it (which I doubt). Also you never know, the non-Jewish coworker may date Jewish women for a reason. He may be a Jew in waiting. :-) I certainly would not encourage a relationship like this, but once it has started you have to bring the Jew closer it is the only way to make sure the Jew stays Jewish.

Also if you get the boyfriend to break up with her because she is Jewish you can be sure she will harbor such resentment against religious Jews she will NEVER date another Jew again.

NotInNJMommy

Wed, Aug 12 2009, 11:03 am

I'm not trying to push anyone apart. Not aiding in creating a tragedy for the Jewish people, which is what intermarriage is, is not the same as pushing people apart.

And plenty of people I know, as BTs, were not discouraged from being with the non Jews they were dating, but rather encouraged to find their true Jewish soulmate, and did.

We do not set up people for what they may become. We deal in the now. Halachah doesn't see a non Jew as a potential "Jew in waiting", and there's no chazakah for that. In fact, the statistics don't support that at all.

The true kindness and ahavas yisroel is not always in the mode of "chessed". Sometimes restraint is the correct path.

Peanut2

Wed, Aug 12 2009, 12:40 pm

I think what you did is amazing! Anything you can do to get a Jew to celebrate being Jewish is a good thing. It's unfortunate it's coming from a non-Jewish boyfriend, but that's this woman's choice. I think you did a really good thing.

Honestly, the only thing that trying to break them apart will do is to make work-life incredibly uncomfortable, so people need to stop suggesting that. That would never work, because when people are dating they often don't care what their family and friends think, let alone some coworker. We have to live in the real world and do what works. The OP did good!

Starhavah

Wed, Aug 12 2009, 12:51 pm

Peanut2 wrote:

I agree 100%