Do I have a future litigator?

levial

Tue, Aug 25 2009, 4:43 pm

DD is now 4. She's always been clever and made connections that no one drew for her.

Recently she has been growing more independent. Frustration is growing when she gets in over her head (literally she couldn't take off a shirt with a tight collar that she hadn't buttoned)

But the most unusual thing I find now is that she's a MASTER NEGOTIATOR with a photographic memory. She appears to have the following linear equation DD's stubbornness= (DH's stubbornness) (My stubbornness).

SO what do I do? How can I not squelch her fire, not dampen her personal skillset, but also have good boundaries

Here's an example:

DD: Mommy. Mommy. After I take a bath, I am going to have an arctic (popsicle). You forgot to give me one this afternoon. (notice the positive "I am going to")
Me: (I didn't forget, I just don't force popsicles) Hmmm...Well, since you had glida (ice cream) after dinner, I think you've already eaten a frozen treat this evening, in addition to a dessert.
DD: Mommy. Uh Mommy? Arctikim are not dessert. They are frozen but they are snacks.
Me: (Loving the thought process, but still not sure I should budge) We don't usually eat snacks after dinner
DD: (Slightly whining) Yes we dooooo! Yesterday when I ate bluberries it was after dinner after bath before bed before teeth brushing
Me: Yes, but blueberries are healthy, they are fruit, and they have vitamins
DD: Blueberries were snack Mommy.
Me: Yes, I suppose you ate blueberries as a snack
DD: So I can have a blue popsicle as a snack.
Me: DD, I love you and I know you ate ice cream for dessert, so I think today that counts instead of a popsicle. We don't eat too many sweets. They are "sometimes snacks"
DD: Mommy, we agreed that sometimes I eat snacks after dinner (do you see the logic, the linking of "sometimes snacks" versus having something sometimes!)
Me: (trying not to smile, trying not to give in). Wow. That's true. But I still think today the answer is no to two treats. You had dessert.
DD: You're still thinking, mommy? Can you think yes? Yes popsicles are good for me with vitamins sometimes.
me: No, not so much
DD: (wanting to call another witness) Abba! Abba?
DH: I am leaving for Mincha....
DD: Abba I wanted to kiss you laila tov
DH (sucked in) Oh. Ok Buba.
DD: (Kiss. kiss) Abba. Do you like eating popsicles?
me: That's leading the witness (DH can barely not smile from ear to ear)
DH (Thankfully) Yes, but not before bed. They give me a tummyache
DD: They don't if you stay up a little later and watch TV with IMA
DH: I will see you in the morning...(he puts her down)
DD: But Ahhh baaaaahhh...you ate most of my gliida tonight.
DH: Yes, you said you wanted me to finish it.
DD: Well, you ate most of my glida so now you need to repay me with a popsicle.
DH: A popsicle for a glida (he steps out of the house, thinking he's quoting an "eye for an eye..")
DD: Mommy. Mommy? Abba agreed a popsicle for a glida. Ok, so we're good...
Me: No, he was speaking about Torah - how to repay someone for lost or damaged property.
Dd; Mommy. Abba said a popsicle for glida. Mommy, he lost my properties.
me: Yes, I know what he said, but he meant that...
Dd: Mommy. It doesn't matter. You and Abba like to agree. (she's quoting the "if Abba said no, I say no" consistency conversation where she shopped which of us would say yes to a request)
Me; (Beaten down) Well. I see your point.
DD: Mommy I love you and I love popsicles. You can have one too.

happyone

Tue, Aug 25 2009, 4:47 pm

sounds like a really sharp kid. What happened to the old fashioned just saying NO without explanation?!

grin

Tue, Aug 25 2009, 4:50 pm

wow! are you sure she's only 4? she is definitely going to be keeping you on your toes!

levial

Tue, Aug 25 2009, 4:59 pm

I know. She's very special...as we all feel about our kids...was wondering if it was developmental and I should hang on, or if I was somehow cultivating a lawyer.

She's relentless. ANd I know from whence she gets it. and I don't want to be the person who just says NO..- the whole point is the chinuch - this is why I said no....

And yes, I do say No, but she chases me around. Chatty daughter syndrome. If it's not your kid, it's charming. At the end of the day for me it's exhausting. She's a good listener, but she will also look for a loophole. (Mommy said that after x I can...therefore)

Recently she asks me twice, three times in a row (We're going to thepool, right mommy?) and I finally said "The answer will change if you ask me again."
Later that day I asked my daughter "Do you want chicken or mac n cheese?"
She didn't answer. I asked her again "DD! I asked you if you wanted..."
"Mommy, don't ask me again or the answer will change."
"DD - if you didn't give an answer...your answer cannot change!"

Atali

Tue, Aug 25 2009, 5:01 pm

If you are looking for a shidduch my five-year-old DS is the same way Wink

grin

Tue, Aug 25 2009, 5:01 pm

If this is your idea and methodology of chinuch, I disagree. I think that you're doing too much explaining - and then you even give in if she's logical enough - big no-no!

happyone

Tue, Aug 25 2009, 5:08 pm

levial wrote:

I know. She's very special...as we all feel about our kids....

. ..- the whole point is the chinuch - ....

Chinuch to me is that children should know they sometimes get a no without me giving a song and dance why. Especially at age 4! Maybe I'm wrong, but am I the only one that sees an issue with negotiating with a four year old???

Atali

Tue, Aug 25 2009, 5:17 pm

As someone with a child like Levial's, I take an in-between approach.

I let my DS debate things with me, but I only give one reason (or at the most two) and then say "because I said so" and don't let him win.

It frustrates him, but it is the only way to maintain authority in my house without sounding too unreasonable.

tovasmom

Tue, Aug 25 2009, 5:34 pm

I have a child like this, my oldest ds, who is ten. And let me tell you, there are some things that we just must tell the child -- we are not having a discussion about this, this is just what is going to happen. If there is any feeling of weakness, he will pounce and negotiate an opening. I feel I must stand my ground or all is lost sometimes. And it is hard, and I get tired, but he understands that eventually he must give in. And I am a litigator by trade, so if it is hard for me.......

I think its important to define for yourself what may be negotiated, and what must happen because Imma says so. It is important to realize that thinking that nothing may be negotiated is unrealistic also, especially with a kid like this!

Enjoy! (and the shidduch idea is a bad one, because someone has to give in!)

greenfire

Tue, Aug 25 2009, 7:41 pm

oh dear - but you had me smirking the entire read ... some things in clever little personalities we cannot squelch ... but be careful in knowing the ones not to give in ... even if she is a lawyer YOU are the judge !!!

levial

Wed, Aug 26 2009, 10:31 am

Atali wrote:

Thanks, that is helpful. I'm trying!

Greenfire: Here comes the judge !

katb

Wed, Aug 26 2009, 12:12 pm

Amazing. what a clever 4 year old! I would like to meet her, she could give me some coaching in my negotiations at work!!

mummiedearest

Wed, Aug 26 2009, 12:23 pm

how about:

that's right, we had blueberries yesterday. so you can have blueberries now, but no popsicle.

malky800

Wed, Aug 26 2009, 11:45 pm

It must be a 4 yr old thing.
My daughter is the best negotiator in the house, and she always make sure to include her little brother.
"Mommy it's time to have a popsicle. Right, younger brother, you also want a popsicle. Tell mammy to give you one too.."
usually I listen to her whole string of reasonings with one ear so she can let it all out, and at the end I usually conclude with.
"wow that sounds interesting, BUT mammy said no, and I'm the mommy."