should young couples not socialize together?

sequoia

Wed, Aug 26 2009, 9:53 am

While the presence of children magically makes those feelings of inferiority and jealousy go away.

Plus, consigning people struggling with infertility to social isolation is a GREAT idea!

And, of course, it's inevitable that spending two hours with another couple would make you resent your husband or wife -- after all, it's not like you married them for a reason or love them more than anyone else.

All in all, a logical, compassionate, and wise policy.

Twisted Evil

SplitPea

Wed, Aug 26 2009, 9:57 am

I don't know maybe someone who follows these rules can explain what a "couple" would be? Does a bay count? How many kids must one have? How old? Can ONE couple have said amount of kids and one not have any at all?

We have been married 3 years and are still waiting for oor neshamas to come down so I guess if we followed that rav's policy we would never be invited out or have guest!

freidasima

Wed, Aug 26 2009, 10:27 am

Ah right. And nothing can happen with a single boy of course.
Maybe they should have a rule that instead of being machnisei orchim on a shabbos you should just give zedoko to some yeshiva that will lehachnis orchim for you for a fee so you don't have to and don't have to be chas vesholom put into spiritual jeopardy by having another couple over. (courtesy of the other thread)

Sherri

Wed, Aug 26 2009, 10:32 am

small bean wrote:

I think ppl who have this rule don't invite their friends even when they have kids. I think they invite single boys who need a place and when they go away they go to family. I think the point is that they beleive that couples should not socialize together whether they have kids or not.

Exactly.

breslov101 wrote:

I don't think it's a rule that has a rule-book, it's a sensitivity that they have. Each family can take it the way they want it, and I am sure that they do invite other other couples who may not have kids, etc. in certain circumstances. There is always room for flexibility. The hashkafa behind it is not to have social mixing.

sequoia wrote:

I find the above comment offensive. It's someone's ideology- does it affect you personally?

Quote:

We have been married 3 years and are still waiting for oor neshamas to come down so I guess if we followed that rav's policy we would never be invited out or have guest!

It's not meant to be a punishment, targeted at those without kids. As mentioned above, many couples with this policy won't have couples even when they do have kids. If you specifically want to eat with other couples- find some that don't have this policy.

lakewood mom

Wed, Aug 26 2009, 10:36 am

While I do have other couples over for meals, I understand why there is such a rule. The couples talk, and certain guards are let down. People begin to feel more comfortable, and may talk a little more loosely. While there is nothing wrong to say hi and be courteous to your friend's husband, many Rabbonim feel that is where it should start and end- you shouldn't have conversations- especially in a laid back relaxed atmosphere.

SplitPea

Wed, Aug 26 2009, 10:40 am

I am not trying to bash a whole system it just seems to take away from the ability to invite and hahve guest over. I don't see why a single guy is any safer to have over than your husband's friend and his wife? I just don't get it? The wife STILL needs to sit at the table with a strange guy (or two or three) (or is she banished to the kitchen?) Honestly its almost Impossible to not have a different gender over for shabbos and have guest unless you are a single mom with all girls inviting a single girl over or a single dad witha ll boys inviting a yeshiva guy over.

I just don't get how its MORE tznius to invite a single guy or single girl over and not a couple?

NotInNJMommy

Wed, Aug 26 2009, 10:40 am

DH's Rosh Yeshiva in kollel also had this rule, btu we were able to get hanhola's approval for a few events where several couples got together-- enough that perforce the men and women would have to sit at separate tables so that actual socializing/chatting wasn't likely to happen between the genders and also ea. gender would have enough other people of the same gender to have fine table conversation with.

catonmylap

Wed, Aug 26 2009, 10:40 am

Quote:

sequoia wrote:
While the presence of children magically makes those feelings of inferiority and jealousy go away.

Plus, consigning people struggling with infertility to social isolation is a GREAT idea!

And, of course, it's inevitable that spending two hours with another couple would make you resent your husband or wife -- after all, it's not like you married them for a reason or love them more than anyone else.

Quote:

I find the above comment offensive. It's someone's ideology- does it affect you personally?

Even though the purpose of this practice was not to isolate couples struggling with infertility it is a consequence and one that should be seriously weighed.

It doesn't affect me personally and never has since I don't live in a community where people follow such rules. But I first heard of this "rule" on the ATIME board, so you bet it affects those suffering from infertility and it is shocking and appalling that their suffering is not taken into account by the "Rabbanim" who make up such restrictions.

Sherri

Wed, Aug 26 2009, 10:55 am

catonmylap wrote:

Quote:

I find the above comment offensive. It's someone's ideology- does it affect you personally?

First of all, just because you don't like what they say doesn't make their Rabbanus less valid.

Secondly, I understand that it can be hurtful (how do you know what stage of life I am at?? Perhaps I also read the ATIME boards) and the consequences should be weighed, and that's why I said that many times there are ways to be flexible. An idea that one poster mentioned: Have a few couples over so it isn't everyone mixing together.

Sherri

Wed, Aug 26 2009, 10:57 am

breslov101 wrote:

You are right, it is not, and usually those couples with such policy will invite a few guys and the wife will sit quietly, not socializing. It is a POLICY, not an arbitrary rule. It's there for a reason, and is flexible if necessary.

amother

Wed, Aug 26 2009, 11:03 am

yeh I heard of this too and I actually agree with it!
although I think its referring more to shana rishona where ppl can be measuring up eachother more, even for the wife herself comparing herself to another wife (ie. she makes better food so my husband forsure likes it here better) not for husband or wife actually wanting the other ones spouse just for noticing qualities that the other person might have and therfore come to notice lacking in their own spouse. Of course everyone has there own standards and if you like it or if the company is good for u thats ok but be understanding of ppl who might like to follow this "rule''
also even tho we dont do "couple meals'' we do eat with other young pretty newly married couples and sometimes I feel like my husband would want me to be more like his sis in law and it makes me feel bad even though in reality he isnt even thinking that...

SavtaHelen

Wed, Aug 26 2009, 11:12 am

There are so many couple who "need" an invitation, newcomers to the community, families with no children at home for Shabbat or Chag, prents of a new baby who are too exhausted to cook... I always feel that it is a real mitzva to invite guests for Shabbat. And in my opinion, Tzniut has to come from within, and if you don't internalize your own rules and guidelines, all the external "fences' in the world won't be able to do the job for you.

small bean

Wed, Aug 26 2009, 12:09 pm

when you have a bunch of guys at your table - your not isolated and can't talk, but the convesation usually doesnt leave much for you to say. it's guy conversations. the same for if you have a bunch of girls - usually your husband wont have much too add. so it doesnt lead to socializing mixed genders as much. that's why couples who do this - wont have couples with kids over either.

no rules are etched in stone it's like a guideline to follow, it doesn't mean that if a couple really needs a place to go that you can't have them come.

my husband an I once went to one of his friends for shabbos - last minute notice. we were on our way to monsey, ny and our car broke down so we call a friend of his who has this rule of no couples. (they had 2 kids, she was preg with #3 and I had 1). anyway ofcourse they let us come. it was interesting though how we sat by the table. so my husband's friend was at the head, my husband to his left, me next to my husband and the friends wife was at the other head. this way the conversation was sort of like my husband and his friend and me and his wife. there was no socializing at all as a couple.