should young couples not socialize together?

freidasima

Thu, Aug 27 2009, 7:07 am

ROFL I'm completely with you.
I would think that seeing other couples, can teach you things. Sometimes it can teach a new husband how to act towards his wife in a nicer way, sometimes it can teach a wife new ways of running a shabbos table.
Let's be positive about things here.

The problem is that there has been this artificially created world in which men and women or rather boys and girls never mix until dating. Then this short period of shidduchs when it's ok and then forever forbidden.

Hey everyone, the world is made up of men and women.
Once upon a time this "women's society" and "men's society" existed naturally. There were big extended families living all near each other. So you didn't have to go to a stranger, you went to your mother, your aunt, your cousin, your sister and your brother and your mother's cousin and your mother or father's great aunts, that's the life that my mother describes as a girl with her family and my grandmother and grandfather's brothers and sisters all living nearby with their children.

But then we became a mobile society.
And the BT phenomenon grew as well.
And lo and behold there weren't any more of these gigantic enveloping families around and young couples were sooooo alone.
It's not nice to be alone for everything, especially in a society that puts such a premium on hachnasas orchim.

So - what's the solution? You take something that used to be a natural phenomenon, then you make it into an eitza, but the support system for the phenomenon has disappeared. And then lots of people get hurt from this eitza.

WHAT IS WRONG HERE???

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Aug 27 2009, 8:45 am

SavtaHelen wrote:

There are so many couple who "need" an invitation, newcomers to the community, families with no children at home for Shabbat or Chag, prents of a new baby who are too exhausted to cook... I always feel that it is a real mitzva to invite guests for Shabbat. And in my opinion, Tzniut has to come from within, and if you don't internalize your own rules and guidelines, all the external "fences' in the world won't be able to do the job for you.

jsut curious, why do you feel that a couple with no children "need" an invitation for a meal? I know that before we had children we actually loved eating at home just the two of us. ok, maybe once in a while we liked being invited out but most of the time we liked being in.
can you just explain why you think this bunch "need" the invite?

Sherri

Thu, Aug 27 2009, 8:55 am

ROFL wrote:

As for comparing other spouses I feel that people work together and help each other out as freinds should do. How come the rabbonim only think negatively. Freindships can be and are a postive way for growth not a negative thing in life.

Who said it's the rabbanim? Many couples decide this on their own, not listening to a "rule" that the Rav said, but feel this is a way they want to live.
They don't want the lifestyle of shidduchim being made over the Shabbos table, or other things that you think are pros of the lifestyle.

Everyone knows friends are positive- because it's discouraged to have families eating together this means that friends are discouraged? And what does "working together and helping each other out" have to do with comparing or privacy that the couple chooses?

Yes, there are positives and negatives, and obviously the couple doesn't think what you may deem as pro's compelling enough for them to socialize in such a fashion.

And as someone mentioned before- there's a simple solution: If you are the type of couple that enjoys socializing each Shabbos, perhaps make new friends who share similar interests!

Sherri

Thu, Aug 27 2009, 9:04 am

greenfire wrote:

fatFreePaper wrote:

I def see the logic and was taught this in one of my first kallah classes. One spouse usually comes home comparing something or other of the 'other couple'

we can do that everywhere with everyone in the street or shul or whatever - if one is that hyped up about comparing and jealousy ... no need to wait for friends at the table ...

You really think that's true? You can't see the difference between casual acquaintances and people whom you get together with often and spend a lot of time with each other?

Ruchel

Thu, Aug 27 2009, 9:26 am

In the settings with couples I have been, the convo tends to be "women together" and "men together" anyway, due to different interests and all... the only exception is sometimes a topic interesting everyone, but unless you are already unhappy with your spouse I see no reason why you should only see the positive points of other guys/gals... in fact I don't even see why comparison should happen. One is your spouse, others are just that, others. And in the end if you are really that immature, remember no one forced you to marry that person, so keep it to yourself!

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Aug 27 2009, 9:30 am

Ruchel wrote:

ruchel, think that was very smart, really. its the truth. one is your husband and the other guy is just a guest at your table. you never ever know the full picture of a couple's life together. even if the husband is always cheery and lovey dovey to the wife and helps all the time and just looks and seems perfect, he is not. and so as ruchel said, I also do not see why comparisons have to happen either, only if you are insecure about your spouse and / or marriage.

amother

Thu, Aug 27 2009, 10:11 am

Quote:

SavtaHelen wrote:
There are so many couple who "need" an invitation, newcomers to the community, families with no children at home for Shabbat or Chag, prents of a new baby who are too exhausted to cook... I always feel that it is a real mitzva to invite guests for Shabbat. And in my opinion, Tzniut has to come from within, and if you don't internalize your own rules and guidelines, all the external "fences' in the world won't be able to do the job for you.

I think what she meant was older couples with married or older kids and none of the kids came home for yom tov, so they are lonely.

personally, I dont see why "no coupling" has to become a mitzvas lo teasei. I think the whole point of it was to be a general guideline that newly married couples shouldnt socialize too much with the opposite gender. which is perfectly reasonable. after the first year or so, when the marraige is more secure each couple should decide for themselves what is good for them. maybe in one couple the wife is still insecure with her husband and it would be a better idea not to have other husbands over to be comparing too. and vice versa.
and other couples could be very happy and secure and see no problem inviting couples after just 6 months of marraige.

personally when I was a couple of months married we were invited to a friend who had been married a couple of years. that was fine.
but when the couple of years married couple invited us and another newly married couple I felt uncomfortable seeing my husband talking to the newly married wife. they had simlar interests and were really getting into some conversation without me or the other husband. I was so uncomfortable with it, that when we left I mentioned to my husband that I didnt think it was appropriate to talk so much to the woman. he had no idea that even after marriage it was important to keep boundaries between opposite genders. he thought now that I'm married I can talk to all women however much I want to.
I was horrified (though I didnt show my feelings) and said maybe for now we wont socialize as a couple anymore with newly married couples. (especially this one.) and he agreed.

after a couple of years we get together with that very same couple with no problems. my husband has learned not to focus the conversation on the wife, and he just talks to the husband, and I talk to the wife, with very little mixing of conversation.

PinkFridge

Thu, Aug 27 2009, 10:19 am

ceo wrote:

ugh, why do people always bash rabbonim and the eitzos they give???

When we were newly married, my husband's yeshiva had a ""eitzah tova. ": young, newly married couples should not have seudos together except in specific circumstance (ie- couple x had to attend a simcha lail shabbos in the neighborhood and needed a place for lunch, etc... ..) This was not a RULE, it was a suggestion, for the reasons outlined above, by hadasa. Just to help guard the levels of tznius and boundaries regarding a marriage, especially at the begining. There was no specific, set time that a couple "outgrew" this suggestion, just depending on the family.

I know that a shul Rav here in my neighborhood mentioned this recently: young couples who have not been married so long (under 2 years or so) should not be socializing with other young couples. It's not a rule, and not meant to ensure that people don't make friends, just a suggestion in order to help maintain kedusha and shalom bayis.

I think it's great advice and am impressed that it was presented that way, as advice.
And no, not every eitza morphs into yaharog v'al yaavor.

PinkFridge

Thu, Aug 27 2009, 10:20 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

SavtaHelen wrote:

Maybe while they still have mobility, if there's no eruv or they won't be using the eruv in their community.

Chayalle

Thu, Aug 27 2009, 10:29 am

Quote:

How come the rabbonim only think negatively

They don't only think negatively. They think constructively. They are the ones who get the phone calls with serious Shalom Bayis problems, and they know better than most of us where the problems originate.

I come from a less "yeshivish" family, so the "no inviting couples" suggestion (it's not a rule, just guidance) was totally foreign to me. I had a really hard time with it when DH told me about it after we got married. I had never heard of it, and had envisioned my home as an open one, full of guests, etc...

It wasn't an ironclad rule, but in general we didn't invite other couples to socialize. We had bochurim - single boys - over and except for following some interesting conversations, I didn't enjoy that much because I just served, cleared, served...etc...My DH didn't push me to have guests if I wasn't up to it, though. He also was willing to have family and go to family, and also went with me to older families. Occasionally we did have a couple over, if they were the type that would respect our lifestyle where the husband would chat with DH and the wife would be my guest, without cross-conversations. But I did have a hard time with the whole concept.

Now, though, years later, I see alot of stuff that goes on with younger couples that socialize. I see jealousy, I see people forming opinions of others' spouses and sometimes sharing those opinions, leading to Lashon Harah and jealousy, strife between neighbors, etc...and I see it wasn't such a bad idea.

Ruchel

Thu, Aug 27 2009, 10:50 am

The rabbanim don't think only negatively. But in some circles, it seems like another culture alltogether. "My" rabbanim have never commented on coupling (what a weird word anyway).

Quote:

after the first year or so, when the marraige is more secure each couple should decide for themselves what is good for them.

but we could say the contrary, in the beginning both see everything rosey and when they know each other better THEN they could be jealous?
It's all so individual, some couples are strong and healthy much before marriage, others will never ever be...

Quote:

he had no idea that even after marriage it was important to keep boundaries between opposite genders. he thought now that I'm married I can talk to all women however much I want to.

That's not a problem with socializing as a couple, that's a problem with your husband's way of thinking!

Ruchel

Thu, Aug 27 2009, 10:53 am

Quote:

It wasn't an ironclad rule, but in general we didn't invite other couples to socialize. We had bochurim - single boys

This can be just as inappropriate, or even more!
I would think a young wife who doesn't host couples "be shitta" also doesn't host any bachur!

Quote:

Now, though, years later, I see alot of stuff that goes on with younger couples that socialize. I see jealousy, I see people forming opinions of others' spouses and sometimes sharing those opinions, leading to Lashon Harah and jealousy, strife between neighbors, etc...and I see it wasn't such a bad idea.

Again here not a problem of socialization but of derech eretz.

amother

Thu, Aug 27 2009, 11:02 am

Ruchel wrote:

If the couple is already having difficulty they certainly don't need more pressure of seeing another person's spouse who has what their spouse is lacking.

Ruchel

Thu, Aug 27 2009, 11:04 am

amother wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

If the couple is already having difficulty they certainly don't need more pressure of seeing another person's spouse who has what their spouse is lacking.

If they're have difficulties they should concentrate on that, not on others.
If they're not having difficulties I don't see why they would be jealous.

amother

Thu, Aug 27 2009, 11:26 am

We don't couple. (Although I've never heard of it refered to like that.)

We've been married a few years now, and we talked to our Rav at the beginning about this. He asked us a lot of questions, including whether I have friends in the community, whether either of us really wanted to "couple," whether I or dh are a very social person who will feel locked in if we don't couple. With all that in mind, he suggested that we don't. He's told other people in the community that they should.

And yes, it's a guideline, not a yayhareg v'al yaavor. We've had single people call us on Thursday needing a place for Shabbos, and we've said yes. We had a situation where we did go over to a couple because of a situation where they really needed us there. We've had over older people (our parents' age) and younger people (high schoolers who needed a place to go for Shabbos, for whatever reason). No, we don't have company often, and when we do, we try very hard to keep the conversation separate.

I find it interesting that some people are saying "this is ridiculous, MY rav never mentioned it!" Great. Your rav didn't. My rav did. You do what your rav says. I'll do what mine advises, based on my specific situation.

I've had IF, and I never felt offended by this. I actually looked forward to time with my dh each week. I socialized with my friends on Shabbos, just not during meals. Mealtime was a time for dh and I to grow closer together. Especially during shana rishona, and even for the time after that with no children, I found it so important that we had that time together. I also really did appreciate the fact that dh was getting to know ME, not some other wife.

Would dh have started "talking too much" with the other woman at the table, had we gone out? Probably not. But I was so insecure for the first few years - and from talking to various new wives, I don't think I was the exception. My dh always did everything to show me that I had no reason to feel insecure, he was great, but had we gone elsewhere, I would have been constantly feeling that he was comparing, or at least saying "Oh, so not ALL women are X like my wife is." A weak middah on my part? Maybe. Definitely something I've been working on. But a middah that I think a lot of new wives share.

We still don't go to couples. Maybe at some point in the near future we will, when we feel we'd like to. But for now, the norm on Shabbos for us is still "us time." I think it's done great things for our marriage.

princessleah

Thu, Aug 27 2009, 12:48 pm

First of all, it's not so peachy to have singles over either. I can count at least two families I know off the top of my head where the husband ended up "involved" with the seminary girl shabbat guest.
Also, if you have over single girls, probably the wife is still serving and clearing, leaving the huband alone at the table with them. Then what? he looks up at the ceiling and whistles? (nope, can't whistle on Shabbat!)
Or you have over bochrim and the wife's job becomes server, bus-boy, and waitress. Excellent.

If you're insecure or prone to comparison, it will show up even outside of couple socializing time. Let's say you're talking to your female friend at the park. "Look what I got for my anniversary!" (shows off new tennis bracelet) or "We're going to Mexico for my birthday!"
You get the gist, what's stopping you from thinking, "why does her dh buy her all these nice things and mine never does!" I really think it's just an excuse.
If you hold the halacha is that men and women should never interact, then just hold by that without throwing other explanations in the mix. What about your husband's brother's wife? She's not really family, are they allowed to talk to each other?

hadasa

Thu, Aug 27 2009, 1:21 pm

I don't see the point in stating that "the problem is not couples' socializing, it's immaturity, insecurity, lack of derech eretz". Of course if none of us were ever insecure, immature or lacking in DE we would not need extra safeguards on this issue. But the fact is that some Rabbonim who have experience with these things recognise that people and relationships are not perfect and consider this to be a reasonable safety measure.

This is NOT Halachah. It is NOT a guarantee that there will never be jealousy or comparison issues. It does NOT mean that couples who do socialize together will definitely have these problems. It's just a recommended safety measure.

And yes, there is risk involved in inviting singles as well, and jealousy and comparisons can also crop up in conversations with the same gender. But some people who deal with Shalom Bayis problems seem to feel that sitting at the table and seeing each other interact as a couple is especially problematic.