Don't want guest to sing in my house (kol isha)

amother

Sun, Sep 13 2009, 1:09 am

I live in a mixed area of different types of frum people. We are more yeshivish, but I have MO friends. Most of them know how to behave/dress in my home, but there is one family where the wife always participates in zmiros and shir hamaalos when it's only DH and her husband singing. It's very awkward for us, but I don't know how to handle it. Just don't invite them over anymore? Or come straight out and tell her? (It's not like she's a close friend).

lilacdreams

Sun, Sep 13 2009, 3:00 am

ask your dh not to sing! If he doesn't lead, then would they break out in song spontaneously? Even shir hamaalos can be whispered. Tell them dh is just so tired, he doesnt have ennergy to sing tonight...and the next time...and the next

merelyme

Sun, Sep 13 2009, 3:02 am

How do you think she'd react if you told her really nicely that we hold kol ishah even for zemiros ... even though some people don't? (This is true.)

amother

Sun, Sep 13 2009, 3:42 am

merelyme wrote:

How do you think she'd react if you told her really nicely that we hold kol ishah even for zemiros ... even though some people don't? (This is true.)

I tried this once with guests. Let's just say it was very awkward and they were very insulted. Sad

Believe it or not, some feel free to break out in song even at others' housees.

amother

Sun, Sep 13 2009, 3:47 am

amother wrote:

merelyme wrote:

How do you think she'd react if you told her really nicely that we hold kol ishah even for zemiros ... even though some people don't? (This is true.)

I tried this once with guests. Let's just say it was very awkward and they were very insulted. Sad

Believe it or not, some feel free to break out in song even at others' housees.

as someone who is MO, I would probably just not invite them if that was something that was that important to you b/c I know that if someone told me what you told that guest of yours, I would be very insulted too and would probably never want to come back anyway b/c it would be awkward.

catonmylap

Sun, Sep 13 2009, 3:48 am

What if you have her and her husband over with more people at the same time so it's less noticeable (& your dh won't hear her, you can also do your seating with this in mind), and if she notices the other women aren't singing at all, she might get the message that way.

BeershevaBubby

Sun, Sep 13 2009, 3:55 am

amother wrote:

merelyme wrote:

How do you think she'd react if you told her really nicely that we hold kol ishah even for zemiros ... even though some people don't? (This is true.)

I tried this once with guests. Let's just say it was very awkward and they were very insulted. :(
Believe it or not, some feel free to break out in song even at others' housees.

Don't bring it up at the table. Mention it when you extend the invitation. Or simply call her to explain...

"I'm sure you've noticed that I don't sing out loud at the Shabbat table. That's because our Rav holds that it is considered Kol Isha, even though others say it isn't. While we love having you share our Shabbat table, we'd appreciate it, if in the future, you would refrain from singing out loud as well."

BeershevaBubby

Sun, Sep 13 2009, 3:58 am

amother wrote:

I'm MO as well and I simply take my cues from my hostess. If I see/hear she is singing out loud, I do too. If she isn't, I don't.

But if I have a guest who is too clueless to notice what is going on and it bothers me enough that I feel the need to mention it, I will do so.

amother

Sun, Sep 13 2009, 4:00 am

catonmylap wrote:

If she didn't get it in the past she won't get it just because there are more women. It seems being upfront or just not having them over anymore is the answer. Also, some people hold that even if there are other women singing, women don't sing at the table.

amother

Sun, Sep 13 2009, 4:03 am

YESHASettler wrote:

amother wrote:

Yesha, you sound like a very considerate guest. Unfortunately many people use this as a reason to take offense.

ImaYerushalayim

Sun, Sep 13 2009, 4:14 am

Inspired wrote:

Remember that embarassing her might be worse than the kol isha, so be careful. I would just not say anything.

I agree. There is also an opnion in halacha (don't quote me, maybe find out the details) that when singing with other people, it is not considered kol isha. You don't need enough people to drown out her voice, just as long as she is not singing alone, which she isn't.
DH relies on this when we have this situationat at our Shabbos table.

amother

Sun, Sep 13 2009, 4:14 am

amother wrote:

merelyme wrote:

How do you think she'd react if you told her really nicely that we hold kol ishah even for zemiros ... even though some people don't? (This is true.)

I tried this once with guests. Let's just say it was very awkward and they were very insulted. Sad

Believe it or not, some feel free to break out in song even at others' housees.

Just to clarify, I did this at a private moment in the kitchen, just to the wife, not in front of anyone else of course!

Marion

Sun, Sep 13 2009, 4:15 am

I sing at other people's homes, unless no one else is. If there's a problem and it's not evident, someone needs to tell me. But if I'm in an MO home I'll assume I can sing with everyone else. If I'm in a charedi home I'll assume I can't sing. We don't go to our charedi family very often...

amother

Sun, Sep 13 2009, 4:16 am

ImaYerushalayim wrote:

Inspired wrote:

Remember that embarassing her might be worse than the kol isha, so be careful. I would just not say anything.

You're very right, but many people don't hold by this opinion at all.

amother

Sun, Sep 13 2009, 4:20 am

The problem with relying on it being okay if others are singing with the woman is that there are inevitable moments where you can only hear the woman. Also there are some women with overpowering voices. Especially my MO friends who really know how to sing and don't just sing like regular people like I do with my mediocre voice, I find it very uncomfortable.