Don't want guest to sing in my house (kol isha)

entropy

Sun, Sep 13 2009, 7:27 am

I don't like any of the wordings that have been suggested. I think this needs to be approached with humility, taking responsibility for the past misunderstandings and without calling attention to her part in these past misunderstandings.

After you invite her, you say: BTW I keep forgetting to say this when I invite people, but in our home women do not sing. Im sorry I forgot to mention it last time!"

If she brings up her past actions, you take responsibility, "no no it's my fault, I'm sorry, I didn't think to mention it until it was too late and of course we're not going to mention it at the table!"

amother

Sun, Sep 13 2009, 7:42 am

Anon b/c I'm talking about my family here...
My MIL and SIL are not necessarily MO, but they also sing at table, at their own homes and mine, and others. I always feel like I stand out for not singing, but we hold that it is kol isha. Sometimes when it has come up, I'll say something like this
"I love hearing the men sing on Shabbos. It makes me kind of miss being in seminary or something. I look forward to a nice ladies shalosh seudos, etc. when we can all get together and sing without the men around"
Lind of generic, puts the issue on me, but also lets the guests or even family know that singing out loud here isn't okay, without them having to be insulted.

faigah

Sun, Sep 13 2009, 3:34 pm

I'm chasidish so I don't get this issue specifically because in our crowd women don't sing at all when someone except from the immediate family can hear.

My issue is with the problem as a whole. I have no problem telling anybody in a respectful manner about things, which are relevant to the situation, that we do them differently. Why should someone get embarrassed? Your not putting down anybody if you’re telling them that your way is that women don't sing. It's not condescending. It's just like you say for instance “you eat fish as the last course at the shabbos meal. This is the way you do it.”

OTOH maybe I don't understand these things because I’ve never been in this situation.

amother

Sun, Sep 13 2009, 4:02 pm

faigah wrote:

Faigah, the issue is that there is sometimes tension between certain groups, like MO and Yeshivish. Where a MO person might think that the yeshivish person thinks they're practically a [gentile] because they don't cover their hair fully, etc., even when it isn't actually the case. So when someone tells them they can't sing, they might a)be offended and b) feel that it's an anti-woman thing, whereas MO women are generally feminists.

faigah

Sun, Sep 13 2009, 4:07 pm

amother wrote:

I thought that this would only make it easier. In a chasidishe crowd you kinda expect everybody to follow the same rules more or less. But with you everybody's derech is so different from one another that it could easily be chalked up to this is how it is done by us, without it seeming condescending.

Butterfly

Sun, Sep 13 2009, 8:18 pm

entropy wrote:

Entropy, smart and compassionate suggestion! Thumbs Up

Raizle

Sun, Sep 13 2009, 8:25 pm

Inspired wrote:

Remember that embarrassing her might be worse than the kol isha, so be careful.

I think this is something you really need to consider.

I'd suggest asking a Rov what to do.

Maybe your husband can sing louder so he doesn't hear her, or inconspicuously hold his hands close to his ears and block them.
Or just not sing.

I think the problem is you didn't mention it the first time it happened and now it seems from your post she has been to your house a few more times.
It would be less embarrassing had it been mentioned the first time.

Another suggestion, maybe you can schedule the serving for when your husband sings and ask her for some help in bring dishes to the table.

mimivan

Sun, Sep 13 2009, 9:46 pm

lilacdreams wrote:

ask your dh not to sing! If he doesn't lead, then would they break out in song spontaneously? Even shir hamaalos can be whispered. Tell them dh is just so tired, he doesnt have ennergy to sing tonight...and the next time...and the next

a Chabad rabbi whose congregation was MO and had this issue told the men it wasn't his job to tell her not to sing, but it was the job of the men to sing louder..(however, this is a shul situation rather than a Shabbos table situation)

mama-star

Sun, Sep 13 2009, 9:52 pm

entropy wrote:

excellent. Thumbs Up

shabbatiscoming

Mon, Sep 14 2009, 3:54 am

amother wrote:

faigah wrote:

just wanted to point out that this is a very not true generalization. I dont know where you got that from, but it is not always true.

BeershevaBubby

Mon, Sep 14 2009, 4:09 am

amother wrote:

faigah wrote:

Except if a MO is going to a Yeshivish house for Shabbat, chances are everyone should be open-minded enough to be willing to accommodate the other.

It's an issue of respect. I should respect my hosts enough to go along with their wishes while in their home.

chanchy123

Mon, Sep 14 2009, 4:18 am

I'm also MO, and as others have mentioned before and we hold that it is fine for a woman to sing along with men - especially if it is zmirot. But I wouldn't do it in a home where I assume it would not be welcome, and as a previous poster said I take my clues from the hostess.
If your guest doesn't do this, I would mention something the next time I invited her over. But try being respectful, acknowledging the validity of this woman's halacha observence, just you don't do it, because your rav paskins differently and it bothers DH (don't say it bothers you - it's alwasy best to blame the husband).
BTW if applicable, my SIL and her daughters are very musical and love singing zmirot, when having guests or being guests they sing when the men go to mincha/maariv.

chanchy123

Mon, Sep 14 2009, 4:31 am

Marion wrote:

I sing at other people's homes, unless no one else is. If there's a problem and it's not evident, someone needs to tell me. But if I'm in an MO home I'll assume I can sing with everyone else. If I'm in a charedi home I'll assume I can't sing. We don't go to our charedi family very often...

Many DL people are very makpid on this as well.
When I'm a guest I always wait to hear if the hostess is singing or not even if she's just not musical or not in the mood.
Oh, BTW I like entropy's answer, go with her idea.

mominisrael2

Mon, Sep 14 2009, 8:17 am

amother wrote:

Ummm, yeah, story of my life...I was MO in a mostly chassidish office and got invited often to weddings of coworkers, and a woman actually came out and called my DH a [gentile] because he was wearing a kippah srugah and didn't speak Yiddish...and then asked him if he was the photographer... shock

That was the last time DH accompanied me to an office wedding...

amother

Mon, Sep 14 2009, 8:27 am

mominisrael2 wrote:

amother wrote:

That was the last time DH accompanied me to an office wedding...

How did that work, she said, "Your husband is a [gentile] because he's wearing a kippah srugah"?

mominisrael2

Mon, Sep 14 2009, 11:11 am

amother wrote:

How did that work, she said, "Your husband is a [gentile] because he's wearing a kippah srugah"?

I think it was more a reaction to his not speaking Yiddish than the fact that he was wearing a kippah srugah...obviously he was out of place because he was the only one not in a black hat or shtreimel, but it wasn't nice regardless for anyone to make him feel uncomfortable...it wasn't even another guest but a beggar, another phenomenon of chassidish weddings I'll never understand...

Fox

Mon, Sep 14 2009, 11:54 am

amother wrote:

the issue is that there is sometimes tension between certain groups, like MO and Yeshivish. Where a MO person might think that the yeshivish person thinks they're practically a [gentile] because they don't cover their hair fully, etc., even when it isn't actually the case.

I agree completely that the etiquette issue is a result of tensions between various groups. Here's what has never made sense to me, though: let's say you are MO; you have your yeshivas, rabbonim, poskim, etc. You ask your shailos to them and abide by their decisions. Some of those decisions may be different from similar decisions reached by the poskim of other groups. But if you are genuine in your attempt to follow your mesorah, it shouldn't be upsetting in any way to learn that other poskim have ruled differently about a specific issue. And obviously, as a guest, you would respect the practices of your hosts.

Of course, there will be loonies who may insult your derech or treat you differently because of it, but again, if you are genuinely following your mesorah, you won't be defensive -- you'll just chalk it up to bad middos and move on.

I seem to have encountered a lot of people who are constantly on the defensive against people whom they perceive to be "frummer" than they. Sometimes it's a Yeshivish/MO conflict; sometimes it's a Chassidish/Yeshivish conflict; occasionally it's a Sephardi/Ashkenazic conflict. But the best way to foster respect for your own derech is to simply follow it, explaining to anyone who asks that your rav/posek has made thus-and-such decision, and that's what you follow. No pitting posek against posek; no arguing source against source -- let the poskim and gedolim hash it out in the beis medrash!

In general, people will come to respect you if you are consistent and calmly methodical in your practices, even if they disagree with your derech. Would a Sephardi guest at my home during Pesach be "offended" if I didn't offer him rice? I very much doubt it. He would realize that his poskim allow rice, but mine do not. Nothing personal! If rice during Pesach is so important to him, he can stay home or go to Sephardi hosts.

As other posters have said, Entropy's approach seems best. But try not to allow the surrounding cultural issues (e.g., the role of women, etc.) to intrude into your thinking. It's not our job to evaluate the credentials of various poskim or their legitimacy. And if you present it as Entropy suggested and your guest is still offended, the problem lies with her own security in her derech, not anything you've done.