Don't want guest to sing in my house (kol isha)

mummiedearest

Mon, Sep 14 2009, 1:23 pm

for those who have mentioned a source for a woman being able to sing zmiros:

r' hirsch said that a woman could under a few conditions:

-it had to be in a group
-her voice couldn't be distinguishable from others'
-it had to be for something holy.

my dad asked a shaila about this when I was a teen. a neighbor spent at least one shabbas meal a week with us, and I hated having to keep my mouth shut during zmiros. as we are yekke, our rav (who hadn't realized we were yekke in all the years he'd known us) said we could hold by this but that we had to make sure that any men present did not object to my singing. so even with this opinion from r' hirsch, I wouldn't join in the singing at someone else's house without prior permission from the host and other guests.

str82thepoint

Mon, Sep 14 2009, 2:37 pm

Can you clear the table and lure her into the kitchen when the men sing?

Or you could bring the whole thing up as a conversation, while not directly addressing the issue.

Tell her she has a lovely voice and ask her if her whole family sings so nicely.

Then, add how you wish you could sing at the shabbos table, but your husband's family has a minhag that the women don't.

Put yourself in the same boat as her. And have the conversation casually when the two of you are alone, NOT at the table.

happywife613

Mon, Feb 13 2012, 2:40 am

I cant understand that someone would be insulted by your lifestyle, when it is applied to you the wife/mother as to them. Let alone the fact that's it's your place and meal.

morah

Mon, Feb 13 2012, 8:47 am

We generally let people know before we invite them that we are strict about kol isha, so please don't sing- said in such a way that it's obvious that the we say it to all guests, so no one yeshivish thinks we think she isn't makpid and no one MO thinks we are concerned about her specifically. Now, your problem seems to be that you've already had her over more than once, so you didn't get a chance to head her off initially. Fox and Entropy said it best. You have to say something, but be very sensitive. In the future, say it to everyone you invite, even if you are fairly sure she knows.

BTW, at least in your own home, you can control things more. The question is, what do you do if you're in someone else's home where they do sing and you're a captive audience who can't say or do anything because you're a guest?

Mon, Feb 13 2012, 9:59 am

amother wrote:

Anon b/c I'm talking about my family here...
My MIL and SIL are not necessarily MO, but they also sing at table, at their own homes and mine, and others. I always feel like I stand out for not singing, but we hold that it is kol isha. Sometimes when it has come up, I'll say something like this
"I love hearing the men sing on Shabbos. It makes me kind of miss being in seminary or something. I look forward to a nice ladies shalosh seudos, etc. when we can all get together and sing without the men around"
Lind of generic, puts the issue on me, but also lets the guests or even family know that singing out loud here isn't okay, without them having to be insulted.

I don't think this would work, and might even backfire. I don't care for hidden messages, hints and mind games. Personally, I prefer it when people are more direct. "By the way, and I'm sorry I neglected to mention this before, we hold by _____" is more honest and in no way offensive. It is possible that the guest honestly doesn't know (I was clueless about not-singing-at-the-Shabbat-table until well into adulthood).

ElTam

Mon, Feb 13 2012, 1:33 pm

I would not blame it on your DH. That's not fair and would likely be more offensive. It sounds like, "Well, I think it's okay, but my caveman husband..."

I agree with the posters that you should mention it the next time you invite, and apologize for having not mentioned it before and say that you hope you haven't made her feel uncomfortable.