Selective giving | Imamother

didan

Sun, May 07 2006, 1:07 pm

B"H

seniormom wrote:

The Rosh Yeshiva promptly gave the boys a mussar shmooze, telling them that if this donor's money is kosher enough for the yeshiva to take then their food is kosher enough for the boys to eat. What a beautiful lesson this Rosh Yeshiva gave his boys in kavod habriyos.

I'm not sure I understand this. Giving Tzedakah is one mitzvah, keeping Kosher is another Mitzvah. both are important, yet the fact that a person does one does not mean he does the other as well.

We are on Shlichus and most of the people who give us donations are not Shomrei Torah U'Mitzvos. They know we would never eat in their house, yet they respect and appreciate the work we're doing, so they give.

Because a person gives, does not mean we can put a stamp of approval on all of his other actions.

morningstar

Sun, May 07 2006, 1:17 pm

Why the assumption that "learning" and "working" are mutually exclusive? Or that "working people" can't be Talmidei Chachamim? (The JP article that started this thread, by the way, was about a boy who was seriously into learning, but also worked. )

To cite one example, I know of an of a girl who was asked by her father (a very learned man, who struggled financially, and took teaching jobs etc. in order to suppor the family) if she wanted to marry someone who was learning-- and if she did, he would support them. The daughter said to her father "my husband will be young and can work--if you have the money to support someone to sit and learn, then it should be you."

She married someone who got up every morning at 4:00 to learn a couple of hours before work, and learned another couple of hours every evening... saved money, and over the years, gradually increased the number of hours each day he could learn, till eventually he was learning full-time. He was a great ba'al midos and his home was a home imbued with Torah and one of exceptional chinuch. And yes.. he considered a point of pride that he could pay his full tuition for his children and support Torah in that way as well.

Crayon210

Sun, May 07 2006, 1:21 pm

It's very unusual for someone to be able to do that, and it's also very unusual, if not impossible, for a "working person" to achieve the level of learning that a "learning person" would.

(There was an article about 20 years ago about why there aren't really any Modern Orthodox gedolim, and the author raised this issue--that because Modern Orthodoxy believes strongly in Torah u'Madda, people are by nature not focused solely on Torah, and are therefore much less likely to be on the same level of learning as someone who spends all his time learning Torah.)

seniormom

Sun, May 07 2006, 2:54 pm

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Countless Jews have supported yeshivos and other fine institutions and you would not be able to eat their food.

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We are on Shlichus and most of the people who give us donations are not Shomrei Torah U'Mitzvos. They know we would never eat in their house

Obviously Motek and didan missed an important part of my post:

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moved several years ago to a donated building in a modern Orthodox community.

These are shomer shabbos ppl wanting to enhance their community with a yeshiva and beis medrash--not at all the ppl you refer to in your quotes.

And, Motek...I'm frankly surprised at your lack of kavod haTorah shock

...look how you speak of a highly regarded Rosh Yeshiva. (You do not even stop to give him the courtesy of being dan l'chaf zchus, and assume that maybe you don't have all the facts, and surely not as much Torah knowledge as the Rosh Yeshiva.)

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His statement is illogical because of course the man's support demonstrates zilch about his kashrus observance and how lenient or strict he is.

I think the rosh yeshiva was concerned that the man not be insulted and stop donating money! Quite practical!

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We are enjoined to flee from kavod, not seek it out.

Yes, and the kollel world is enjoined, too.

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Sounds like a lot of working people have the modern illness of low self-esteem.

On the contrary, it is too often the yeshiva/kollel ppl who are too insecure to acknowledge that there is value in anything or anybody outside of their tight circle.

and, about working ppl who spport Torah institutions, Motek wrote:

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If they believed in what they were doing and knew their place and truly respected Torah....

It is precisely this condescending attitude that is potentially such a turn-off (not to Torah, but to supporting those who would demean us).

Crayon210

Sun, May 07 2006, 3:07 pm

seniormom wrote:

Obviously Motek and didan missed an important part of my post:

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moved several years ago to a donated building in a modern Orthodox community.

These are shomer shabbos ppl wanting to enhance their community with a yeshiva and beis medrash--not at all the ppl you refer to in your quotes.

There are often cases in which chareidi people cannot eat in the homes of Modern Orthodox people because of differing kashrus standards. I'm confused as to what your point is about them being Modern Orthodox.

southernbubby

Sun, May 07 2006, 5:42 pm

While I was outside, I thought of someone else. My neighbor's husband grew up as the frum son of a hard-working man. This man didn't know much Torah but looked up to those that did and generously supported the yeshiva. Those in the learning world looked down on this man, and his son, who is no longer frum, was very ashamed. He excuses his lack of frumkeit today on the condescending attitude of those whose Torah learning was not reflected in their midos. Maybe this man gained a place in olam haba for his support of learning, but his son's frumkeit was lost because those that he supported had no respect for him.

Crayon210

Sun, May 07 2006, 5:52 pm

Wait a second--

Respecting those who spend all day immersed in learning does not go hand in hand with being condescending to those who don't!

Sometimes this comes up in Chabad also among (official) shluchim and non-(official) shluchim, when non-shluchim feel that shluchim look down on them for not being on shlichus. Sometimes that is unfortunately the case Sad

, but sometimes it's entirely unfounded: one can respect someone on shlichus (or in kollel, or in anything!) without davka bashing those who don't do those things for whatever reasons...

southernbubby

Sun, May 07 2006, 7:46 pm

I am glad that you mentioned that Crayon because several years ago, my daughter went to work for a shaliach at a winter camp. When the shaliach farbranged with the girls, he told them that those who had non-shluchim for parents, need not listen to those parents. The principal was upset but decided to ignore it because it would just be giving him attention. I could tell a few more such stories, but you already know that this problem exists. My children luckily learned where to put such comments, but I believe that some kids went " exit stage left" because they found no place for themselves.
That is the point of this whole discussion. Does someone who feels put down have to support those who put him down? On the one hand we could be like Yosef Ha Tzadik who forgave his brothers but on the other hand he had to make sure that his brother would not receive the same treatment! And if everyone would have the attitude of the original mother in the article, there would be no achdus, but achdus should not be a one sided affair.

morningstar

Sun, May 07 2006, 7:48 pm

[quote]It's very unusual for someone to be able to do that, and it's also very unusual, if not impossible, for a "working person" to achieve the level of learning that a "learning person" would.

(There was an article about 20 years ago about why there aren't really any Modern Orthodox gedolim, and the author raised this issue--that because Modern Orthodoxy believes strongly in Torah u'Madda, people are by nature not focused solely on Torah, and are therefore much less likely to be on the same level of learning as someone who spends all his time learning Torah.)

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Crayon, these are the assumptions that so enraged Cheryl Kupfer's friend. By definition, very few people ( working or learning) end up "gedolim". Rich father-in-law + generous dowry + wife who earns a great living do not necessarily a godol make.

Yiras shomayim/ehrlichkeit/seriousness about learning/ is best assessed on a case by case basis. In my parents' generation it was often Ba'alei batim who gave the daf-yomi shiur and other public shi'urim: not a rarity at all. The drive and sacrifice to become a talmid chacham was not the exclusive province of kollel yungerleit then-- nor should it be today.

Last edited by morningstar on Mon, May 08 2006, 12:59 am; edited 1 time in total

Crayon210

Sun, May 07 2006, 8:04 pm

morningstar wrote:

I do not know who Cheryl Kupfer is.

Yes, very few people end up being gedolim, but one is more likely to be a talmid chacham if he learns 10 hours a day than 4, 4 rather than 1, etc.

Also, if a person is engaged in other things (medicine, law, business, etc.) as a field of study, he is also less likely than someone who only studies Torah.

I'm not talking about yiras shamayim, ehrlichkeit, and seriousness about learning. I'm talking about results, as in, becoming a posek or mechaber sefarim, etc. Obviously all those midos are important, but I'm talking about the results in terms of intellect and knowledge.

Most people who would qualify as talmidei chachamim are probably not involved in other endeavors besides Torah. That's not necessarily a bad thing. For example, in Chabad, kollel is usually limited to two years, so most men are not accomplishing in learning what kollel yungerleit are if they stay in kollel for ten years or more. That doesn't upset me, it's just the way it is.

seniormom

Mon, May 08 2006, 12:41 am

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No need to be confused, Crayon, as I'm certain that the Rosh Yeshiva had enough information that the home in question was kosher. BTW "modern orthodox" is a dirty word these days, but many who bear that label are quite careful about halachos. If a Rav I respect tells me I can eat somewhere, I will. No different than following him on some other shaila.

Minhagim differ, but that doesn't make a home treif. Litvish may not accept chassidishe shechita, and are very particular about kemach yoshon which many chassidishe hashgochos don't bother with; likewise chassidim prefer to stick to their own shechita and hashgochos, which would probably eliminate many litvish homes. But that doesn't make either of them treif.

I have been invited to homes of Rabbonim, and homes of laymen where many chashuva Rabbonim have eaten without question, yet when I entered the kitchens of some, I was appalled at the carelessness in kashrus standards (due either to sloppiness, or to having non jewish maids preparing food). I was really queasy about eating there, even if all the ingredients had the right hashgocha. That's why labeling ppl is so dangerous, and it can also be downright misleading.

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Also, if a person is engaged in other things (medicine, law, business, etc.) as a field of study, he is also less likely than someone who only studies Torah.

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I'm not talking about yiras shamayim, ehrlichkeit, and seriousness about learning. I'm talking about results, as in, becoming a posek or mechaber sefarim, etc.

Crayon, how many ppl actually become poskim or write sefarim? The exceptional iluiy, yes...but, of the vast majority, hardly any at all. In fact, I would venture that if a person is exeptionally smart and adept academically, he might be mekayaim the bigger mitzvah of saving a life if he became a doctor...maybe even find a cure for cancer and save many lives.

This is not to say that if one is able, intellectually and financially, that he shouldn't learn 10 hours a day for many years. It is definitely important to aquire as much Torah as possible, but not everyone who "learns" is a talmid chacham. Those who are learned definitely deserve our respect, but as I said in a previous post, there are many ways to do our avodas Hashem, and they deserve respect, too.

Crayon210

Mon, May 08 2006, 12:16 pm

seniormom wrote:

No need to be confused, Crayon, as I'm certain that the Rosh Yeshiva had enough information that the home in question was kosher.

So then why would the Rosh Yeshiva made a comment about the person being a donor? Wouldn't it make sense to say, "That person keeps a perfectly kosher home," rather than bringing his status as a donor into the picture?

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Minhagim differ, but that doesn't make a home treif. Litvish may not accept chassidishe shechita, and are very particular about kemach yoshon which many chassidishe hashgochos don't bother with; likewise chassidim prefer to stick to their own shechita and hashgochos, which would probably eliminate many litvish homes. But that doesn't make either of them treif.

No one said treif, but if those bochurim were makpid on only eating Kemach Yoshon, then wouldn't they expect that it wouldn't be permitted to eat in the home of someone who wasn't makpid on Yoshon?

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Crayon, how many ppl actually become poskim or write sefarim? The exceptional iluiy, yes...but, of the vast majority, hardly any at all.

This was in response to someone saying that a person can achieve a very high level of learning together with working. It is very unlikely. That was my whole point. Most people cannot have their cake and eat it too. Or eat it and have it too. Smile

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In fact, I would venture that if a person is exeptionally smart and adept academically, he might be mekayaim the bigger mitzvah of saving a life if he became a doctor...maybe even find a cure for cancer and save many lives.

I don't think it's our department to determine mitzvos' worth.

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This is not to say that if one is able, intellectually and financially, that he shouldn't learn 10 hours a day for many years. It is definitely important to aquire as much Torah as possible, but not everyone who "learns" is a talmid chacham.

I agree and hope I didn't imply this.

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Those who are learned definitely deserve our respect, but as I said in a previous post, there are many ways to do our avodas Hashem, and they deserve respect, too.

I agree. I said the same thing (perhaps in different words).

seniormom

Mon, May 08 2006, 1:54 pm

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There are many ways to instill chinuch and I wasn't there, of course, but I imagine the Rosh Yeshiva was using this as an opportune moment to let the boys know they shouldn't look down on another yid who is shomer mitzvos--especially one who supports Torah learning--simply because he doesn't learn all day, wears a different kind of yarmulka, etc.

I'm not saying that I wasn't surprised by the "liberal" stance the Rosh Yeshiva took, but I also was kind of impressed that he had the courage to take this position--most would be too afraid of public opinion--and as I said before, knowing this Rav, I have to assume that he knew all the facts about that home before he spoke.

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No one said treif, but if those bochurim were makpid on only eating Kemach Yoshon, then wouldn't they expect that it wouldn't be permitted to eat in the home of someone who wasn't makpid on Yoshon?

This is a very valid point, but kemach yoshon is not in the category of halacha medeoreysa, so in extenuating circumstances I know of many ppl who will overlook it. Again, that's why we sometimes just have to ask a Rav.

Crayon210

Mon, May 08 2006, 6:30 pm

seniormom wrote:

I have questioned the kashrus of various people, but that doesn't mean I disrespect them for not learning. (Huh?!)

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I'm not saying that I wasn't surprised by the "liberal" stance the Rosh Yeshiva took, but I also was kind of impressed that he had the courage to take this position--most would be too afraid of public opinion--and as I said before, knowing this Rav, I have to assume that he knew all the facts about that home before he spoke.

I would also assume that he knew all the facts, but now it sounds like anyone who's reasonably frum and donates is an acceptable host. (Huh?!)

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That's all fine and good, but it seems strange for a Rosh Yeshiva to advise his students to consider overlooking an accepted hiddur in the community for the "extenuating circumstances" of eating at a donor's home. (Huh?!)

And what does respecting someone have to do with eating in his home? Confused

Unless you want to go back to the theory that people don't want to insult donors...? Confused

seniormom

Mon, May 08 2006, 10:44 pm

Thank you Amother for being dan l'chaf zchus.

Crayon, I'm sorry that I can seem to explain myself any better, but I do think you're missing the point--both the Rosh Yeshiva's and mine.

You seem to have fixated on the "donor" issue and can't see beyond it. I realize that many organizations and yeshivas are guilty of pandering, but I truly don't think that was the case here. Maybe it's because I know the Rav, and heard the positive reaction of some parents, that I feel confident of my position.

ILOVELIFE

Mon, May 08 2006, 11:38 pm

I am a nogea b'davar here. My dh was in Kollel and still is in full-time learning minus the kollel. Reason: he found that if u truely want to learn it's best done out of th ekollel setting (for the most part) in Kollelim today, there are so many distractions that yes, it can be difficult for even an illuy to learn.

The issue and pain of working boys is real. I think the first solution to the problem is to stop brainwashing all the girls that they all shld be marrying Rebbe Akivva and let him learn 24 years and she'll support him or be supported by her penniless father (or rich father ) There are those who can do it and many who can't. And even if a boy learned til his wedding many don't stop right after because of peer preassure either from their own friends or their wife's peer preassure. Rolling Eyes

Back to the original q (which I think btw, shows that u are a really sensitive and honest person, southernbubby LOL

) I definately give to causes which pull at my heartstrings much faster than to a kollel or yeshiva. However, that' not called real giving, I know.