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-> Working Women
amother
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 Wed, Dec 30 2009, 9:23 pm
| shalhevet wrote: | | Quote: | | or promise you she is on birth control at the interview and then tell you she's due in 8 months and will be leaving you and also needs time off to go to the doctor every four weeks |
Don't worry. I wouldn't send you any one I knew even for an interview, if you think it's your business to ask this from anyone - Jewish or not - when you interview them. |
shalhevet, I am the amother who posted a while back about having gone thru two frum nannies before (fortunately or unfortunately) settling for a non jewish one, after one frum one stole (documented and dealt with after consulted with our rov) and the other was just lazy and mean.
I agree that it is not fair 2 discriminate- but when you are hiring an employee, of course it is "your business!" you make it your business.
Not hiring a nanny who gets pregnant every year, is no different (IMVHO, as someone who has had nannies since my first was born), than not hiring a nanny who is 75, or obese. sure, I am "discriminating" against old people, or obese people - but from a legal, and a practical standpoint, in these cases, there is a huge difference. discriminating would be saying:
"I don't want to hire a fat / old nanny because fat / old people are just gross"
saying u don't want to hire an obese or 75 year old nanny, because she wont be able to easily chase your 3 kids up stairs in your 3 story home, and take them to the park every day which is 9 blocks away, pick up #4 from gan down the block every day, because she is always wheezing, and it is hard on her heart, is different.
I bring that mashal to show you:
saying "I don't want to hire someone who will get pregnant every year" because you do not approve of her lifestyle (having a large fam), is one thing (unfair, and discriminatory).
saying "I don't want to hire someone who, because of her lifestyle choices, will make it harder for me to effectively do my job. because I will have to take off from work at every OB appointment she has, and I will have to find someone to replace her when she has the baby, which will be tough for my kids emotionally to adjust to, and tough financially, and will mean I will have to take off time from work which I cant afford."...is entirely different.
Look. I cant speak for everyone on this planet or this website. But I find it funny that all these people who have never even had a nanny, and would never even entertain the notion of having a nanny, or working outside the home, are telling us "this is the right way to do it." like I said in my other posts, going from frum nannies to hiring a non jewish nanny was hard, very hard, emotionally. it was a stressful time for us, and I was scared for my baby. But every move we made was done consulting with our Rov, who gave us encouragement and finally helepd me see that for us this was the best and only decision we could have made.
and to the poster who questioned whether a jewish nanny could molest a child--- have you been following the news lately? do you think that "frum" people find it impossible to commit crimes? sure, it is very rare, for a nanny to do something that sickening (I HOPE), but how could you doubt it if you were not the amother, who surely has proof of this and wouldn't make something like that up!
of course no one would believe me that my first nanny stole from us. I did not want to believe it either. We looked every which way to give her the benefit of the doubt. but we had video proof and it was devastating for us to find out what a frum person was doing in our house. I had to learn the hard way! and guess what? my non jewish nanny has never stolen anything. surprise! not all non jews are evil! I leave out cash, jewelry, you name it...she knows where to put it away, and that place is not her wallet!
Ok I am done with my ranting but seriously, I think lots of people just don't get it. you cant talk until you've been in s/o else's shoes.
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MommyZ
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Wed, Dec 30 2009, 9:36 pm
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I had a frum babysitter/nanny who sat on the computer all day, ate all my food and ignore my baby and older kids. She didn't make sure that they were fed and she didn't do homework with them or get them to bed. She went on facebook and dating websites the whole time she was here and spoke on her cell phone. Even when I got home she still staid on my computer for a good 15-25 minutes doing whatever she was doing when I was paying her to take care of my kids. She also regularly took my kids to her mother's apartment so that her mother could watch them. She also showed up late every day without any explanation or apology. The final straw was when my my 3 1/2 year old and 9 month old sons were sick and she asked if she could take them outside in the rain. I explained to her that they were sick and it wasn't a good idea and she asked me a second time if she could take them out and I said no but to call me if there were any problems. She'd been watching my kids for just over a month and my baby screamed every time he saw her. She did end up taking the kids outside for at least 1/2 an hour in the cold wind and rain and my son went to the hospital the next evening with pneumonia. I fired her and she told me that my daughter had a big mouth for telling me what happened. I hired a second frum babysitter because my husband insisted on frum babysitters and she was excellent. My baby loves her and adjusted to her in just a few days because she played with him and read him books. Unfortunately for us she is going back to school now so I have to look for another babysitter and hope I strike gold again.
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shalhevet
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Thu, Dec 31 2009, 4:53 am
| Quote: | | Look. I cant speak for everyone on this planet or this website. But I find it funny that all these people who have never even had a nanny, and would never even entertain the notion of having a nanny, or working outside the home, are telling us "this is the right way to do it." like I said in my other posts, going from frum nannies to hiring a non jewish nanny was hard, very hard, emotionally. it was a stressful time for us, and I was scared for my baby. But every move we made was done consulting with our Rov, who gave us encouragement and finally helepd me see that for us this was the best and only decision we could have made. |
Are you talking about me?
Because, yes, I worked outside the home when my children were babies. I took them to babysitters to save money and so I could have warm, intelligent, frum, aidel women taking care of my children, because most women like that are much more willing to work in their home.
I know I'm in Israel so it's easier, but I am sure that with the right conditions frum women (don't tell me no frum women are looking for work) in America would also be willing to care for your children, at least in their home.
I actually find this whole thread sick. My only conclusion, with all the horror stories everyone wants to outdo each other on about frum women (unless you are all not willing to pay a frum woman what frum women generally earn) is that all frum women in America are fat, eat all day, thieves, and sit on Facebook all day.
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amother
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Thu, Dec 31 2009, 7:54 am
| shalhevet wrote: |
Are you talking about me?
Because, yes, I worked outside the home when my children were babies. I took them to babysitters to save money and so I could have warm, intelligent, frum, aidel women taking care of my children, because most women like that are much more willing to work in their home.
I know I'm in Israel so it's easier, but I am sure that with the right conditions frum women (don't tell me no frum women are looking for work) in America would also be willing to care for your children, at least in their home.
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Shalhevet! are you deliberately missing the point?!?!
This thread is not about comparing the +'s and -'s of in house nannies vs playgroups. I can list for you a dozen reasons why playgroups in someone elses home are absolutely not an option. and no my reasons are not "I want someone to clean my house also," although the extra cleaning my nanny does goes a long way in helping with my shalom bayis and stress levels. they are more along the lines of (and these are only a few):
1. in my line of work, I need someone who is flexible and able to be at "my beck and call" - and when it is someone in their own house, with their own kids, it is hard to be devoted like that.
2. another reason is that one of my babies was very prone to getting sick, and I did not want to expose him to unneeded other kids all day,
3. having to wake my babies up at 6 in the morning before the sun is even out to take them to a babysitter some mornings when I need to leave early, is unfair and IMO borderline abusive to little children. it is just down right cruel.
I can come up with more if you need, but in short, an out of house situation is absolutley not an option for me. Plus, I think my children enjoy and appreciate the comfort of being in their own house, being comfy during the day, having their toys and cribs, etc. and also as I mentioned before, my nanny (who works just for me and is devoted to solely my kids, not a dozen others), picks up one of my kids from gan almost every day in the early afternoon after 1/2 day (I am home when the older ones get home). that would not be possible at some playgroup. so there is another reason.
Money is not the issue. I can afford an in home nanny, and, I would be willing to pay more, for a frum in home nanny. and Guess what? I did just that - - twice!! but I am NOT willing to pay someone almost double what I am paying a non jewish nanny, to have them steal, AND on top of it, refuse to lift a finger in my house! That was nanny #1.
And with nanny#2, I was also willing to pay that same "premium" but not for someone who is lazy and just cold and mean to my kids (despite having been so nice when I was there and on the interview...my baby cried whenever he saw her, and I had a nannycam too. thank God our computers are password protected or she would have been downstairs all day and would have never even heard him crying). She was even lazier than the first one! Fine, you are frum. I understand if you think cleaning my toilets is beneath you. So I will hire a cleaning lady to come once a week and do the little things that I might not have time for, but need to get done, on top of having you as full time help with my kids. Seems absurd, but I did it, because I wanted a frum person with my children. But can you at least wash the dishes that YOU used? without even asking me if you could use my pots and pans you cook food for yourself all day, but asking you to make some rice or an egg for my kid is not in the job description! or at least have the decency to put what you used into the dishwashers! I have two of them!!
Honestly, I was very burned. It was not like after those two I said like "Frum nannies are evil, I must find a [gentile]," it was more like I said, I need to re-evaluate what my priorities are (with the advice of a Rov all along the way). and among them are someone who is nice to my kids, and takes care of them, doesnt throw bottles at them all day when they should be eating food you are too lazy to get off your tush to prepare. Someone who is loving, patient, and not short with kids. Someone who is willing to engage in activity with them, not sit on the phone all day long while they entertain themselves. Sending my kids "out" to a playgroup is not an option. It will never be one, unless I cant CH"V afford care in my own home. So bringing in something that is totally irrelevant to those of us that have nannies, serves absolutely no purpose at all.
end rant #2!
| shalhevet wrote: |
My only conclusion, with all the horror stories everyone wants to outdo each other on about frum women (unless you are all not willing to pay a frum woman what frum women generally earn) is that all frum women in America are fat, eat all day, thieves, and sit on Facebook all day. |
I don't know what your line about "unless you are not willing to pay a frum woman what frum women generally earn" means. I generally earn about $100 /hour. that is standard in my industry. from the demographics of my industry, yes, it is what people doing my job, "generally earn." is that "what a frum woman generally earns?" from the demographics of my block, maybe yes. from the demographics of this site, I would say probably not. So what is "standard?" my standards and your standards are very different, because we live in two different countries, have two different professions, and our opinions on what is important in a caregiver differ immensely (case in point: I would never, ever, send my babies to someone elses home where there are other babies around. For numerous reaons. you, OTOH, would).
A nanny usually earns (in America at least, dunno about England, France, or Israel), anywhere from 8 to 25 dollars an hour. I paid my first two 20, which is at the high end, and is usually what you pay someone with dozens of years of experience and who has a drivers license and shuttles your kids around, studies with them, and cleans for you, and has some sort of licensure - like being a nurse's aide, teacher's assistant, has a masters in a field like health or education, etc - is really "all inclusive." but since they were frum women, and demanded higher salaries than non jews, I paid it. this is DESPITE not having a higher education (I didnt really care, although that is important to some people, I dont see how education correlates with better caregiver or mom obviously), being unwilling to clean or prepare food for kids, being unwilling to take them anywhere (like the optometrist once in a jam, who is around the block, the corner store to buy some milk, or with nanny #2, the park), and being less flexible with hours and needing more time off. I was willing to pay a premium. now I am paying my non jewish nanny 11 dollars an hour, and she does 10x more than what those two did combined. and she doesnt steal, on top of it!
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amother
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Thu, Dec 31 2009, 11:21 am
| shalhevet wrote: | | Quote: | | Look. I cant speak for everyone on this planet or this website. But I find it funny that all these people who have never even had a nanny, and would never even entertain the notion of having a nanny, or working outside the home, are telling us "this is the right way to do it." like I said in my other posts, going from frum nannies to hiring a non jewish nanny was hard, very hard, emotionally. it was a stressful time for us, and I was scared for my baby. But every move we made was done consulting with our Rov, who gave us encouragement and finally helepd me see that for us this was the best and only decision we could have made. |
Are you talking about me?
Because, yes, I worked outside the home when my children were babies. I took them to babysitters to save money and so I could have warm, intelligent, frum, aidel women taking care of my children, because most women like that are much more willing to work in their home.
I know I'm in Israel so it's easier, but I am sure that with the right conditions frum women (don't tell me no frum women are looking for work) in America would also be willing to care for your children, at least in their home.
I actually find this whole thread sick. My only conclusion, with all the horror stories everyone wants to outdo each other on about frum women (unless you are all not willing to pay a frum woman what frum women generally earn) is that all frum women in America are fat, eat all day, thieves, and sit on Facebook all day. |
I'm one of the earlier amothers. I can't either take my baby out, since I have other kids that come home before I do. Yes there are frum babysitters in america, but those that babysit in their home usually have more than they can handle. When I only had one baby, I would take him to my neighbor who babysat. I was happy that he was in the home of someone I knew & someone who is frum. I payed much less then now, BUT the place was dirty, and their where so many kids there. It was from from ideal! None of the other places I looked into was any better than that, so I stayed with her because I was comfortable with the fact that I knew her. When more kids followed I had no choice but to take someone in the house. Life is so much better since  My baby gets to sleep in his own crib. Crawl around in a clean house. Gets fed like a mentch. AND GETS ATTENTION AND SOMEONE PLAYING WITH HIM. In the groups I saw, they barely manage to tend to the kids needs, and they had to sleep in the stroller. At this point I have no choice regardless. I cannot take my baby out because of the older kids. As time went by, for numorous reason we ended up with a non jewish nanny after discussing this with our rav. Bh it is working out great.
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anuta
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Thu, Dec 31 2009, 12:30 pm
I have warm, intelligent, aidel, kind (yes, those qualities are not exclusive to jews), knowing how to drive, and non-jewish au pairs taking care of my kids and home while I am at work, and I am totally unapologetic about it.
I dont' want to have a jewish nanny. She cannot help me before holidays and on holidays (aah, it was so nice for the first time in many years to be able to spend a whole day on Yom Kippur in the synagogue while my kids were taken care of). And she might want to use "her" rules of kashrut around my kitchen, instead of following MY rules line by line as my au pairs do. Especially nonobservant jews, who think they know better and if they do it, why are you better than them.
In fact, my current au pair's father is jewish, and she went to jewish schools through middle school; she can actually help my kids with their alef-bet, sing hebrew songs with them, and understands holidays and kashrut. But she is not jewish and can help me on shabbat.
Also my young au pairs are highly motivated to finish their year with me successfully, will not leave me for a higher paying job with no notice (as a couple of my previous nannies did), will not demand that I be home exactly at 6pm so they can catch their bus, and are young and energetic to run with my kids and play with them. Not to mention incredibly cheap for me compared to a regular nanny or any other form of childcare.
For me, this is all a moot point, since where I live frum community is very small and there is NOBODY frum who is available for this job...
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MommyZ
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Mon, Jan 11 2010, 9:40 pm
| amother wrote: | | self hating jews |
That was uncalled for.
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PinkFridge
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Mon, Jan 11 2010, 9:52 pm
| amother wrote: | | self hating jews |
I don't know why my inquiring mind needs to know, but amother, is this your first post on this thread?
I'm glad I didn't have to make such a decision and hope my kids don't. I hope, for their sakes, that they are able to find good Jewish babysitters, and that if it means taking their kids to someone else that they have the kochos (halevai we should be able to help in some way) they need to pull it all together at home. This to me seems like a lechatchila we can all agree on.
Now some may say, that anything else is a bedieved. Maybe, but I don't think parents who make an informed decision to do otherwise should eat themselves up over it.
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amother
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Mon, Jan 11 2010, 10:48 pm
| MommyZ wrote: | | amother wrote: | | self hating jews |
That was uncalled for. |
I'm sorry if I came off very strong and nasty. I don't usually post like that but I was very upset with the way people here are showing frum people in such a horrible light in comparison to their wonderful polish cleaning ladies. the non jews look at one jew doing something wrong and say all jews are like that. are we doing the same to ourselves?
we ARE the am hanivchar and you cannot change that. of course there will be a few who are problematic but please don't generalize! because your babysitter stole from you does not mean that most frum people steal while most polish cleaning ladies are perfectly honest.
(by the way if your polish cleaning lady shows any signs of going back to Poland, please hide your jewelry WELL. also, the one who wants to go to shul on yom kippur while your kids stay home with a non-jew, please weigh the pros of your going to shul on yom kippur and your kids spending the day as a regular day with non jew, against the pros of the kids staying home with their beloved mother and feeling a bit of the holiness of the day)
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amother
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Mon, Jan 11 2010, 10:51 pm
| amother wrote: | | shalhevet wrote: |
Are you talking about me?
Because, yes, I worked outside the home when my children were babies. I took them to babysitters to save money and so I could have warm, intelligent, frum, aidel women taking care of my children, because most women like that are much more willing to work in their home.
I know I'm in Israel so it's easier, but I am sure that with the right conditions frum women (don't tell me no frum women are looking for work) in America would also be willing to care for your children, at least in their home.
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Shalhevet! are you deliberately missing the point?!?!
This thread is not about comparing the +'s and -'s of in house nannies vs playgroups. I can list for you a dozen reasons why playgroups in someone elses home are absolutely not an option. and no my reasons are not "I want someone to clean my house also," although the extra cleaning my nanny does goes a long way in helping with my shalom bayis and stress levels. they are more along the lines of (and these are only a few):
1. in my line of work, I need someone who is flexible and able to be at "my beck and call" - and when it is someone in their own house, with their own kids, it is hard to be devoted like that.
2. another reason is that one of my babies was very prone to getting sick, and I did not want to expose him to unneeded other kids all day,
3. having to wake my babies up at 6 in the morning before the sun is even out to take them to a babysitter some mornings when I need to leave early, is unfair and IMO borderline abusive to little children. it is just down right cruel.
I can come up with more if you need, but in short, an out of house situation is absolutley not an option for me. Plus, I think my children enjoy and appreciate the comfort of being in their own house, being comfy during the day, having their toys and cribs, etc. and also as I mentioned before, my nanny (who works just for me and is devoted to solely my kids, not a dozen others), picks up one of my kids from gan almost every day in the early afternoon after 1/2 day (I am home when the older ones get home). that would not be possible at some playgroup. so there is another reason.
Money is not the issue. I can afford an in home nanny, and, I would be willing to pay more, for a frum in home nanny. and Guess what? I did just that - - twice!! but I am NOT willing to pay someone almost double what I am paying a non jewish nanny, to have them steal, AND on top of it, refuse to lift a finger in my house! That was nanny #1.
And with nanny#2, I was also willing to pay that same "premium" but not for someone who is lazy and just cold and mean to my kids (despite having been so nice when I was there and on the interview...my baby cried whenever he saw her, and I had a nannycam too. thank God our computers are password protected or she would have been downstairs all day and would have never even heard him crying). She was even lazier than the first one! Fine, you are frum. I understand if you think cleaning my toilets is beneath you. So I will hire a cleaning lady to come once a week and do the little things that I might not have time for, but need to get done, on top of having you as full time help with my kids. Seems absurd, but I did it, because I wanted a frum person with my children. But can you at least wash the dishes that YOU used? without even asking me if you could use my pots and pans you cook food for yourself all day, but asking you to make some rice or an egg for my kid is not in the job description! or at least have the decency to put what you used into the dishwashers! I have two of them!!
Honestly, I was very burned. It was not like after those two I said like "Frum nannies are evil, I must find a [gentile]," it was more like I said, I need to re-evaluate what my priorities are (with the advice of a Rov all along the way). and among them are someone who is nice to my kids, and takes care of them, doesnt throw bottles at them all day when they should be eating food you are too lazy to get off your tush to prepare. Someone who is loving, patient, and not short with kids. Someone who is willing to engage in activity with them, not sit on the phone all day long while they entertain themselves. Sending my kids "out" to a playgroup is not an option. It will never be one, unless I cant CH"V afford care in my own home. So bringing in something that is totally irrelevant to those of us that have nannies, serves absolutely no purpose at all.
end rant #2!
| shalhevet wrote: |
My only conclusion, with all the horror stories everyone wants to outdo each other on about frum women (unless you are all not willing to pay a frum woman what frum women generally earn) is that all frum women in America are fat, eat all day, thieves, and sit on Facebook all day. |
I don't know what your line about "unless you are not willing to pay a frum woman what frum women generally earn" means. I generally earn about $100 /hour. that is standard in my industry. from the demographics of my industry, yes, it is what people doing my job, "generally earn." is that "what a frum woman generally earns?" from the demographics of my block, maybe yes. from the demographics of this site, I would say probably not. So what is "standard?" my standards and your standards are very different, because we live in two different countries, have two different professions, and our opinions on what is important in a caregiver differ immensely (case in point: I would never, ever, send my babies to someone elses home where there are other babies around. For numerous reaons. you, OTOH, would).
A nanny usually earns (in America at least, dunno about England, France, or Israel), anywhere from 8 to 25 dollars an hour. I paid my first two 20, which is at the high end, and is usually what you pay someone with dozens of years of experience and who has a drivers license and shuttles your kids around, studies with them, and cleans for you, and has some sort of licensure - like being a nurse's aide, teacher's assistant, has a masters in a field like health or education, etc - is really "all inclusive." but since they were frum women, and demanded higher salaries than non jews, I paid it. this is DESPITE not having a higher education (I didnt really care, although that is important to some people, I dont see how education correlates with better caregiver or mom obviously), being unwilling to clean or prepare food for kids, being unwilling to take them anywhere (like the optometrist once in a jam, who is around the block, the corner store to buy some milk, or with nanny #2, the park), and being less flexible with hours and needing more time off. I was willing to pay a premium. now I am paying my non jewish nanny 11 dollars an hour, and she does 10x more than what those two did combined. and she doesnt steal, on top of it! |
what line of work are you in ,If you dont mind me asking?
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amother
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Mon, Jan 11 2010, 10:51 pm
| PinkFridge wrote: | | amother wrote: | | self hating jews |
I don't know why my inquiring mind needs to know, but amother, is this your first post on this thread?
I'm glad I didn't have to make such a decision and hope my kids don't. I hope, for their sakes, that they are able to find good Jewish babysitters, and that if it means taking their kids to someone else that they have the kochos (halevai we should be able to help in some way) they need to pull it all together at home. This to me seems like a lechatchila we can all agree on.
Now some may say, that anything else is a bedieved. Maybe, but I don't think parents who make an informed decision to do otherwise should eat themselves up over it. |
no it is not my first post. why?
also, I am not debating on whether or not one should/may use a non-jewish babysitter. I am just disgusted with the lengthy explanations as why they HAVE to use a non-jew because a jew stole from them. simply put, a non-jewish babysitter is better than a frum baby-sitter. can you help me out and provide kinder words for me to use rather than self hating jew? maybe I am not so good with words.
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MommyZ
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Mon, Jan 11 2010, 10:59 pm
| amother wrote: | | PinkFridge wrote: | | amother wrote: | | self hating jews |
I don't know why my inquiring mind needs to know, but amother, is this your first post on this thread?
I'm glad I didn't have to make such a decision and hope my kids don't. I hope, for their sakes, that they are able to find good Jewish babysitters, and that if it means taking their kids to someone else that they have the kochos (halevai we should be able to help in some way) they need to pull it all together at home. This to me seems like a lechatchila we can all agree on.
Now some may say, that anything else is a bedieved. Maybe, but I don't think parents who make an informed decision to do otherwise should eat themselves up over it. |
no it is not my first post. why?
also, I am not debating on whether or not one should/may use a non-jewish babysitter. I am just disgusted with the lengthy explanations as why they HAVE to use a non-jew because a jew stole from them. simply put, a non-jewish babysitter is better than a frum baby-sitter. can you help me out and provide kinder words for me to use rather than self hating jew? maybe I am not so good with words. |
I'd be happy to oblige. Desperate times call for desperate measures.
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anuta
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Mon, Jan 11 2010, 11:18 pm
| amother wrote: | | WELL. also, the one who wants to go to shul on yom kippur while your kids stay home with a non-jew, please weigh the pros of your going to shul on yom kippur and your kids spending the day as a regular day with non jew, against the pros of the kids staying home with their beloved mother and feeling a bit of the holiness of the day) |
I am not "the one", I didn't post anonymously.
Actually my kids didn't spend a regular day with a non-jew. My au pair took them to shul where I was praying, and stayed with them for the children's program, and they spent most of the day in shul. They only went home in the afternoon for dinner, bath and sleep. They felt plenty of holiness of the day, staying in shul. And so did I, praying in the women's section, instead of running around after them and fainting.
I like it and will do it next year too.
And you, hiding behind anonymous, have absolutely no right in the world to tell me what is better for my kids and what is better for me. I know when my kids are happy, and I chose caregivers that are capable of doing their job well. I also don't live in a large Jewish community, lets castigate me for that choice. Oh well, I live where my job is, so lets tell me what a bad mommy I am for working full time and supporting my family and earning tuition money. Oh, and lets not forget, I went to college and got an education... that is probably also not a proper behavior for a real jewish woman, right?
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PinkFridge
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Tue, Jan 12 2010, 10:40 am
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I don't know why I asked if it was your first post. Maybe just wondering if you'd try to get a point across already, if you've been following this the past few weeks and feelings are simmering or if you just found it. I would say, especially if the former, just stop watching this topic. The twain will never meet, and your blood pressure will thank you.
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amother
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Tue, Jan 12 2010, 7:29 pm
| anuta wrote: | | amother wrote: | | WELL. also, the one who wants to go to shul on yom kippur while your kids stay home with a non-jew, please weigh the pros of your going to shul on yom kippur and your kids spending the day as a regular day with non jew, against the pros of the kids staying home with their beloved mother and feeling a bit of the holiness of the day) |
I am not "the one", I didn't post anonymously.
Actually my kids didn't spend a regular day with a non-jew. My au pair took them to shul where I was praying, and stayed with them for the children's program, and they spent most of the day in shul. They only went home in the afternoon for dinner, bath and sleep. They felt plenty of holiness of the day, staying in shul. And so did I, praying in the women's section, instead of running around after them and fainting.
I like it and will do it next year too.
And you, hiding behind anonymous, have absolutely no right in the world to tell me what is better for my kids and what is better for me. I know when my kids are happy, and I chose caregivers that are capable of doing their job well. I also don't live in a large Jewish community, lets castigate me for that choice. Oh well, I live where my job is, so lets tell me what a bad mommy I am for working full time and supporting my family and earning tuition money. Oh, and lets not forget, I went to college and got an education... that is probably also not a proper behavior for a real jewish woman, right? | /
btw, I also went to college (though a jewish one) and work full time
also please spend your yom kippur however you see fit.
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amother
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Tue, Jan 12 2010, 7:29 pm
| anuta wrote: | | amother wrote: | | WELL. also, the one who wants to go to shul on yom kippur while your kids stay home with a non-jew, please weigh the pros of your going to shul on yom kippur and your kids spending the day as a regular day with non jew, against the pros of the kids staying home with their beloved mother and feeling a bit of the holiness of the day) |
I am not "the one", I didn't post anonymously.
Actually my kids didn't spend a regular day with a non-jew. My au pair took them to shul where I was praying, and stayed with them for the children's program, and they spent most of the day in shul. They only went home in the afternoon for dinner, bath and sleep. They felt plenty of holiness of the day, staying in shul. And so did I, praying in the women's section, instead of running around after them and fainting.
I like it and will do it next year too.
And you, hiding behind anonymous, have absolutely no right in the world to tell me what is better for my kids and what is better for me. I know when my kids are happy, and I chose caregivers that are capable of doing their job well. I also don't live in a large Jewish community, lets castigate me for that choice. Oh well, I live where my job is, so lets tell me what a bad mommy I am for working full time and supporting my family and earning tuition money. Oh, and lets not forget, I went to college and got an education... that is probably also not a proper behavior for a real jewish woman, right? | /
btw, I also went to college (though a jewish one) and work full time
also please spend your yom kippur however you see fit.
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amother
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Thu, Jan 14 2010, 10:42 am
| amother wrote: | | amother wrote: | | shalhevet wrote: |
Are you talking about me?
Because, yes, I worked outside the home when my children were babies. I took them to babysitters to save money and so I could have warm, intelligent, frum, aidel women taking care of my children, because most women like that are much more willing to work in their home.
I know I'm in Israel so it's easier, but I am sure that with the right conditions frum women (don't tell me no frum women are looking for work) in America would also be willing to care for your children, at least in their home.
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Shalhevet! are you deliberately missing the point?!?!
This thread is not about comparing the +'s and -'s of in house nannies vs playgroups. I can list for you a dozen reasons why playgroups in someone elses home are absolutely not an option. and no my reasons are not "I want someone to clean my house also," although the extra cleaning my nanny does goes a long way in helping with my shalom bayis and stress levels. they are more along the lines of (and these are only a few):
1. in my line of work, I need someone who is flexible and able to be at "my beck and call" - and when it is someone in their own house, with their own kids, it is hard to be devoted like that.
2. another reason is that one of my babies was very prone to getting sick, and I did not want to expose him to unneeded other kids all day,
3. having to wake my babies up at 6 in the morning before the sun is even out to take them to a babysitter some mornings when I need to leave early, is unfair and IMO borderline abusive to little children. it is just down right cruel.
I can come up with more if you need, but in short, an out of house situation is absolutley not an option for me. Plus, I think my children enjoy and appreciate the comfort of being in their own house, being comfy during the day, having their toys and cribs, etc. and also as I mentioned before, my nanny (who works just for me and is devoted to solely my kids, not a dozen others), picks up one of my kids from gan almost every day in the early afternoon after 1/2 day (I am home when the older ones get home). that would not be possible at some playgroup. so there is another reason.
Money is not the issue. I can afford an in home nanny, and, I would be willing to pay more, for a frum in home nanny. and Guess what? I did just that - - twice!! but I am NOT willing to pay someone almost double what I am paying a non jewish nanny, to have them steal, AND on top of it, refuse to lift a finger in my house! That was nanny #1.
And with nanny#2, I was also willing to pay that same "premium" but not for someone who is lazy and just cold and mean to my kids (despite having been so nice when I was there and on the interview...my baby cried whenever he saw her, and I had a nannycam too. thank God our computers are password protected or she would have been downstairs all day and would have never even heard him crying). She was even lazier than the first one! Fine, you are frum. I understand if you think cleaning my toilets is beneath you. So I will hire a cleaning lady to come once a week and do the little things that I might not have time for, but need to get done, on top of having you as full time help with my kids. Seems absurd, but I did it, because I wanted a frum person with my children. But can you at least wash the dishes that YOU used? without even asking me if you could use my pots and pans you cook food for yourself all day, but asking you to make some rice or an egg for my kid is not in the job description! or at least have the decency to put what you used into the dishwashers! I have two of them!!
Honestly, I was very burned. It was not like after those two I said like "Frum nannies are evil, I must find a [gentile]," it was more like I said, I need to re-evaluate what my priorities are (with the advice of a Rov all along the way). and among them are someone who is nice to my kids, and takes care of them, doesnt throw bottles at them all day when they should be eating food you are too lazy to get off your tush to prepare. Someone who is loving, patient, and not short with kids. Someone who is willing to engage in activity with them, not sit on the phone all day long while they entertain themselves. Sending my kids "out" to a playgroup is not an option. It will never be one, unless I cant CH"V afford care in my own home. So bringing in something that is totally irrelevant to those of us that have nannies, serves absolutely no purpose at all.
end rant #2!
| shalhevet wrote: |
My only conclusion, with all the horror stories everyone wants to outdo each other on about frum women (unless you are all not willing to pay a frum woman what frum women generally earn) is that all frum women in America are fat, eat all day, thieves, and sit on Facebook all day. |
I don't know what your line about "unless you are not willing to pay a frum woman what frum women generally earn" means. I generally earn about $100 /hour. that is standard in my industry. from the demographics of my industry, yes, it is what people doing my job, "generally earn." is that "what a frum woman generally earns?" from the demographics of my block, maybe yes. from the demographics of this site, I would say probably not. So what is "standard?" my standards and your standards are very different, because we live in two different countries, have two different professions, and our opinions on what is important in a caregiver differ immensely (case in point: I would never, ever, send my babies to someone elses home where there are other babies around. For numerous reaons. you, OTOH, would).
A nanny usually earns (in America at least, dunno about England, France, or Israel), anywhere from 8 to 25 dollars an hour. I paid my first two 20, which is at the high end, and is usually what you pay someone with dozens of years of experience and who has a drivers license and shuttles your kids around, studies with them, and cleans for you, and has some sort of licensure - like being a nurse's aide, teacher's assistant, has a masters in a field like health or education, etc - is really "all inclusive." but since they were frum women, and demanded higher salaries than non jews, I paid it. this is DESPITE not having a higher education (I didnt really care, although that is important to some people, I dont see how education correlates with better caregiver or mom obviously), being unwilling to clean or prepare food for kids, being unwilling to take them anywhere (like the optometrist once in a jam, who is around the block, the corner store to buy some milk, or with nanny #2, the park), and being less flexible with hours and needing more time off. I was willing to pay a premium. now I am paying my non jewish nanny 11 dollars an hour, and she does 10x more than what those two did combined. and she doesnt steal, on top of it! |
what line of work are you in ,If you dont mind me asking? |
to this amother:
I am the one who wrote that long post. I am in the medical field but because there are not too many people I have seen on imamother who do what I do, I am scared that saying what I do will give away my identity (I am not a doctor and I am not a nurse lol, those are probably more common). The high (six figure plus) salary that I make working full time would make it very difficult for me to quit working at this point (not that I want to!)
your advice about Yom Kippur is just...offensive. I do not think my baby needs the "holiness of the day" of yom kippur being in shul with me. Our kids come to shul with us when they are old enough for it to be appropriate (ie, when they are of the age that they can be in a childrens program or can sit quietly in shul for more than 5 minutes at a time). But an infant or 2 year old (the two I left home this year with the nanny for example) have no reason to be in shul, not to mention we do not go by the eiruv in our neighborhood!
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amother
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Thu, Jan 14 2010, 10:45 am
| amother wrote: | | MommyZ wrote: | | amother wrote: | | self hating jews |
That was uncalled for. |
I'm sorry if I came off very strong and nasty. I don't usually post like that but I was very upset with the way people here are showing frum people in such a horrible light in comparison to their wonderful polish cleaning ladies. the non jews look at one jew doing something wrong and say all jews are like that. are we doing the same to ourselves?
we ARE the am hanivchar and you cannot change that. of course there will be a few who are problematic but please don't generalize! because your babysitter stole from you does not mean that most frum people steal while most polish cleaning ladies are perfectly honest.
(by the way if your polish cleaning lady shows any signs of going back to Poland, please hide your jewelry WELL. also, the one who wants to go to shul on yom kippur while your kids stay home with a non-jew, please weigh the pros of your going to shul on yom kippur and your kids spending the day as a regular day with non jew, against the pros of the kids staying home with their beloved mother and feeling a bit of the holiness of the day) |
no one is showing frum people in a horrible light any more than a sicko like mondrowitz "shows jews in a horrible light." there are some bad jews and lots of good ones. there are some bad non jews and lots of good ones, end of discussion. all I was saying (and all others seemed to be saying) is that after trying to stick with only jewish nannies, it came to a point where many of us realized that this a very hard profession to find hardworking, honest, jewish women doing, since it is a low earning profession, so many times, you will not get "the best" of the best by sticking with someone jewish. end of story!
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PinkFridge
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Thu, Jan 14 2010, 11:49 am
| amother wrote: | [q
your advice about Yom Kippur is just...offensive. I do not think my baby needs the "holiness of the day" of yom kippur being in shul with me. Our kids come to shul with us when they are old enough for it to be appropriate (ie, when they are of the age that they can be in a childrens program or can sit quietly in shul for more than 5 minutes at a time). But an infant or 2 year old (the two I left home this year with the nanny for example) have no reason to be in shul, not to mention we do not go by the eiruv in our neighborhood! |
PLEASE DO NOT THINK I AM BASHING YOU! But - deep breath - here goes:
It is very possible that what will be the absolute best for your kids and family is for your life to run smoothly. That could very well mean having your nanny around as an extra pair of hands even when you're not working. And I will not discount the effect of a meaningful Yom Kippur on the rest of your year, or a chance to recharge your batteries.
Now I don't know how long you're in shul on Yom Kippur (or if, as I do, you want to go for Yizkor). But I know that my kids got a LOT from my NOT going to shul on Yom Kippur. We treated the day like any yom tov - treats, a new toy, etc. We didn't use the eruv either, so it was only on R"H that we got to the playground too (until the baby was able to walk; I did NOT use my older girls as babysitters so I could daven, other than for Yizkor). Again, having the nanny around to take the kids out, or watch the kids for an hour or two while you're out - I don't think any sane person should have an issue with that, especially considering your schedule and the need to recharge batteries. But I really, really hope that you spend significant chunks of time in your kids' company on these days, and don't relegate them to the nanny till they're old enough to join you in shul.
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