Why the backlash against moving to an anglo bubble?

amother

Tiffanyblue

Sun, Jun 25 2023, 7:36 pm

amother Scarlet wrote:

what you are describing is a scenario that happens in upbringings everywhere and really is not a reason for the backlash hate/jealousy/critic towards Anglo bubble.

there are people who live and go to school among Yeshivish/Chasidish/ or Just plain Frum and believe that it is not good to identify. They mean well, but at the end of the day most of their children are confused and find it hard to see good in their fellow Jews..

This has nothing to do with it. This has to do with major cultural gaps. I’ll give u an example: my mother hated sandals. Back in the day, all kids wore them besides for us Americans. My mother bought us keds sneakers. Then we went to America and guess what? Keds sneakers were for the nebs. I can give you a whole list of things. Where we simply didn’t belong. Nothing to do about not liking a fellow Jew. Just misfits. And all my Anglo friends were exactly the same. We drooled over American clothing and styles and made fun of Israelis till we went to America to camp and girls would snob us out.
It could be today things are different, but back in the 90’ this was sure an issue.

amother

Silver

Sun, Jun 25 2023, 8:34 pm

amother Aconite wrote:

Just want to let you all know that I am following this thread very closely as we are moving to RBS this summer.

It never occurred to me to be worried that my kids will return to chul. Maybe it’s too abstract but as long as they are well adjusted and happy I’m ok with that.

I started a thread about being afraid to make the move about a month ago and got great support from Reality and others.
This is a lot to process!

Don’t be scared about this. Really, it’s not as people say. I see that this is true for parents who send to the very right wing school system here. The parents don’t learn Hebrew, don’t work in israel, and send to schools who bash the non-religious and the country. At home though, the parents half support the country, don’t dress to the same standards, don’t really agree with the school hashkafa, haven’t integrated, kids hardly know Hebrew, live American lifestyles which is very expensive here and non sustainable if your dc is marrying someone in Kollel (there isnt much choice in the right wing system here) etc. Don’t live your life in contradiction and ensure that your dc learn Hebrew well. Teach them to love the country and send them to schools who teach the same. You’ll likely find you have a different outcome. Charedi here is not yeshivish in the states.

nylon

Sun, Jun 25 2023, 8:46 pm

I think two phenomena are being conflated here.

1) The families who come, who aren't so chareidi, but choose to send their kids to chareidi schooling. The double adjustment--to Israel and to a much stricter religious setting--can be too much. I, too, know cases like this where the kids went OTD and/or moved back to America.

This experience in the 90s and 2000s is why more "American" style schools were opened, largely but not only in BS/RBS. What will the long term results be? I don't know, I'm not from those circles, but I do understand why it was tried.

2) Living in an "anglo bubble." It has its pluses and minuses. If you don't have big ties to Israel--lots of family there, your spouse is Israeli, etc--it really does help to be in a place where other people are in that boat, not to mention having other people who share your language and background.

Now, people do talk about the consequences of living in largely Anglo areas, not just RBS--but, I think, it depends on many factors. I have a friend whose family made Aliyah when she was very little, perhaps 2 or 3. They wound up being one of the early families in Efrat. To this day, despite living her whole life since then in Israel, going to university there, she has an American accent in Hebrew, which is I think a mark that she grew up around so many English speakers. It's distinctive enough that I, an American, can hear it in her Hebrew, although she's of course perfectly fluent (a native speaker would certainly recognize that she learned Hebrew as a young child, accent or not). But: her husband is not Anglo, they do not now live in a very Anglo neighborhood, her kids did not go to schools known for large numbers of Anglo students. She's fully integrated. So there are many choices olim make, and very few bubbles are hermetically sealed.

salt

Sun, Jun 25 2023, 9:58 pm

Reality wrote:

It's coming from my real life experience of multiple people ( who still live in the US) telling me directly that moving to RBS isn't really living in Israel, it's an extension of NY/NJ.

I also have read posts here on imamother with the same attitude in general. One time it was directed at me specifically. But there is definitely an overall negative attitude, especially from people who dont live in Israel, and I'm wondering why.

I'm so curious if olim from other countries experience the same thing...

Don't listen to them. There is nothing to compare.

The Rambam says that it is better to live in Eretz Yisrael amongst idol worshippors than to live in chutz laaretz with only Jews. So to live in Eretz Yisrael with Jews who speak the same mother tongue as you I think is great!

Could it be that the same people saying this are those that say that living in Crown Heights is an extension of the Beis Hamikdash? (tiny bit of sarcasm, sorry Hiding

juggling

Sun, Jun 25 2023, 9:59 pm

I don't think "my kids will go back to America" or even "my kids will marry someone with a similar background" are reasons not to make aliyah. You give it your best shot, and if your kids go back to America, or if your kids stay somewhat American in culture or language, you're no worse off than had you not made aliyah. If anything I think those kids often have one foot in the door to re-attempt aliyah at a later date, and be more successful.

If you give your kids an upbringing where they don't know where they fit in in the world, which leads to mental health crises and rebellion, that would be a reason to not make aliyah. That is, if it will lead to the next generation being maladjusted.

Make aliyah, but choose a school you can align yourself with. Speak respectfully at home about the school's values. Encourage your kids to embrace an identity that exists in Israel. And keep an open mind to your kids making life choices that may be slightly different from your own.

essie14

Sun, Jun 25 2023, 10:18 pm

salt wrote:

💙

amother

Silver

Sun, Jun 25 2023, 10:21 pm

nylon wrote:

I can’t like this enough. This is exactly what I see. I think number one is a significant issue whereas number two is minor. We made different choices with schooling and we’re on the same page as our school on almost every issue. Our school is split 50/50 on the army and we support boys going as part of netzach yehuda. There are Russians, Ukrainians, South Africans, English, French, etc and we work together to make a vibrant culture bringing our backgrounds and accents and that’s ok. You have to really analyze and think how to do this in a way that works for your family.

juggling

Sun, Jun 25 2023, 10:27 pm

If you have boys I think the way you frame the army is huge.

You can send to DL schools where army is expected and valued, and support your kids in that path.

You can send to charedi schools where long-term yeshiva is expected and army is off the table, and support your kids in that path.

But if you choose a school that's split on the army you need to be very open-minded on the issue. Don't frame either choice as "wrong" or "less-than." Wholeheartedly support your kids in choosing either path. And it's probably best if you take the option of "college in America" off the table.

amother

Apricot

Sun, Jun 25 2023, 10:32 pm

Didn’t read through every single post. But we live in RBS for many many years. My son married an Israeli. My other son is younger and the army might not be for him. We support our kids regardless of their choices. It’s funny I was just having a conversation with someone saying once you move to Israel you’re just on a different level. Don’t know how to explain it but even if he moved here with a lot of money and have a nice house you still live in Israel and your mindset just shifts. No guarantee really your kid will live anywhere in life. Plenty people lived Israel and yes, there are those to get married and to move back. I really pray that mine don’t because that’s one of the reasons that we moved here but that we wanted our family to stay close but really I want my kids to do what’s best for them. And living in RBS is definitely living in Israel. If it were so easy that every single person will do it. And I don’t regret my life for a second. My life, and have challenges here or there.

Reality

Sun, Jun 25 2023, 10:35 pm

amother Hosta wrote:

First of all - I don't think that people who go to an anglo bubble are put down, just that there are different approaches to aliya, some davka preferring the anglo bubble and some who do it the other way, and each side is very PASSIONATE about there way being THE right way to make aliya.

Now for your Lower East Side comparison:
Our ancestors going to the lower east side dealt with a LOT of issues, common to immigrants. Prostitution was common, most of the kids went OTD, there where jewish gangsters and mobsters - actually the jewish mob and the italian mob cooperated a LOT. Jews where major boxers, which was a sport very hard to stay frum in. There was a reason that the rabbanim tried to get people to stay in poverty stricken, pogrom ridden, anti-Semitic Europe.

Now - on the flip side, it was very hard to stay frum at all or keep kosher if you didn't go to a jewish bubble on the lower east side or some of the other major cities. So that was basically the only option if you wanted to stay frum. Eventually as the numbers grew, the tiny minority that was staying frum grew, there was an influx of frum jews post war, and a frum AMERICAN society was created.
When jews immigrate from russia or ukraine today, they try to integrate as quickly as possible, and don't create enclaves. The ones who do - tend to have the issues that other immigrant communities have.

In israel we have a totally different situation, where you CAN have a full frum life by integrating into the frum Israeli society. Since the final goal is integration, some people feel avoiding the issues of an immigrant/ non integrated community - especially with the second and third generation, are worthwhile.

I know my analogy to the LES was imperfect. I was mostly comparing the language issue. My point was a few generations down, even if you live in a bubble, the mamah lashon is pretty much forgotten and the kids are aculturated.

Aculturation is not the same as assimilation. In the US and other non-Jewish places, even the frummest of the frum Jews became aculturated because people adapt to where they live. But it is a process that doesn't happen overnight. My point is why anglo olim are criticized for taking the natural time it takes to aculturate to a new society. Why are we expected to shed our past immediately and be "Israeli" and not allowed to gradually become more Israeli organically.

Reality

Sun, Jun 25 2023, 10:46 pm

nylon wrote:

Thank you for explaining this so clearly.

A lot of the comments I think stem from fear of kids going off the derech. I do think a lot of that happens because of a mismatch in values at home vs school. That is a problem in the US as well. Yet it seems to get a lot more attention here in RBS.

ora_43

Mon, Jun 26 2023, 12:07 am

Reality wrote:

My point is why anglo olim are criticized for taking the natural time it takes to aculturate to a new society. Why are we expected to shed our past immediately and be "Israeli" and not allowed to gradually become more Israeli organically.

Because it's not the single "natural" way of doing things. Look at immigrants from Latin America or from anywhere else where the native language isn't English or Russian. Most speak fluent Hebrew within a few years.

And there are downsides to doing it the slow way. Imagine if the immigrants who arrived in the 1950s had decided to become Israeli organically, over 2-3 generations. Half the country wouldn't have been able to communicate with the other half. Their sacrifice in throwing themselves into Hebrew and Israeli-ness is a big part of why we have a national language today, and something resembling a coherent culture.

It's no threat to Israeli society if a handful of American olim want to adjust slowly. And certainly nobody should be bashed for it.

But, WADR, there's something that rubs me wrong about portraying it as "natural" while other ways of doing things are a deliberate choice. Slow integration is a choice as much as anything else. It might be the best choice for a particular family, or even for most immigrants in a certain place and time - but it's still a choice.

(I'm not talking about slowness of complete integration, which I would agree is not a choice. You can't just magic away an accent let alone an entire cultural background; that stuff really does take generations no matter where you go.)

LovesHashem

Mon, Jun 26 2023, 12:13 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

ANd Im saying some just didnt integrate, nothing to do with going off the derech. They never learend hebew, had a very hard time finding work, some moved back to america and they stayed in the same bubble the parents built when they made aliyah.
The ones who went off the derech because of a lack of integrating, thats a whole other kettle of fish. And its sad in a whole other way.

I really don't think when people talk about failure to integrate they think about this. As a said I think most people are fine if their kids would move back to the USA as adults. As long as they are stable and happy and frum and good people and all.

I think when people said fail to integrate they are really scared of their kids going between the cracks and ENDING up bitter and OTD.

ora_43

Mon, Jun 26 2023, 12:15 am

I do think RBS in particular gets criticism because it's not just a linguistic/cultural bubble, it's a political/religious bubble.

Which does increase the risk of raising kids who don't belong in this world or that one.

OTOH, as others said, what are people supposed to do? If the options are to buy fully in to the Israeli hareidi system, buy fully in to the Israeli DL system, or to create your own - sometimes the third option is best despite the drawbacks.

So I'm not saying the religious bubble is necessarily bad. But that IMO is why RBS gets so much criticism compared to eg Efrat or non-R Beit Shemesh.

LovesHashem

Mon, Jun 26 2023, 12:19 am

nylon wrote:

. I have a friend whose family made Aliyah when she was very little, perhaps 2 or 3. They wound up being one of the early families in Efrat. To this day, despite living her whole life since then in Israel, going to university there, she has an American accent in Hebrew, which is I think a mark that she grew up around so many English speakers. It's distinctive enough that I, an American, can hear it in her Hebrew, although she's of course perfectly fluent (a native speaker would certainly recognize that she learned Hebrew as a young child, accent or not). But: her husband is not Anglo, they do not now live in a very Anglo neighborhood, her kids did not go to schools known for large numbers of Anglo students. She's fully integrated. So there are many choices olim make, and very few bubbles are hermetically sealed.

This means she was sent to engoish speaking ganim and schools with alot of English speakers.

Go to Hebrew gan and the accent is solved. My kids had an Israeli accent at 3 as they went to gan shalosh in Hebrew. When they get to first grade they are 100% fluent and sound Israeli.

Also whoever posted about not being able to marry an American or an Israeli - sorry that sounds a little immature. I married an American who made aliyah shortly after we got married, but he planned on staying here.

I'm not sure why you need someone from the same exact culture and area as you. People from OOT marry in town and people marry from different families and cities all the time in the USA. Just because there's some culture differences - why would that affect your marriage? You sound like the gap is so big - like an Israeli who doesn't speak English and an American who doesn't speak Hebrew and who has never been to Israel getting married.

But Americans marry American Israelis all the time. If you have the same values, agree on which country you want to live in - why would there be an issue?

amother

Rainbow

Mon, Jun 26 2023, 1:56 am

I'll bite here -
I live in rbs since my oldest was born >20 years. and we consider ourselves well integrated into the israeli chareidi community. My kids are in mainstream israeli charedi schools/yeshivas and have israeli friends.
my son and a few of his friends left the yeshiva system due to trauma (being molested/exposed). its not because we live in rbs, though it might look that way to some. I have another son who is struggling - unfortunately due to unhealthy exposure as well. I know people whose kids got messed up from learning or other forms of trauma. This is not rbs related. kids in the tri-state area face similar issues.
I do see that there is a sort of american-israeli subculture here and many of my friends children are marrying within that subculture.

Reality

Mon, Jun 26 2023, 5:04 am

amother Aconite wrote:

Hi future neighbor! I am sure you have enough on your plate now that you don't need to worry about this. I have never spent one second of my time worrying about my kids returning to chul. Use your mental energies on getting your family here and having a successful aliyah.

I really think a lot of these worries stem from what happened in the past. BH, the olim who came before us have paved the way for us and today there is so much more awareness via multiple organizations. I really think that the amount of services available now in RBS really can help nip these types of issues in the bud.