raising our voices to our children

mummiedearest

Thu, Jan 07 2010, 9:30 pm

anon wrote:

mummiedearest wrote:

sorry, I think there is a time and a place to raise your voice. and I'm not saving reprimands for home. I hate it when my kids knock candy off the display at the pharmacy and the pharmacist tells me not to bother cleaning it up. I make my kids clean it up anyway. I help them some, they are toddlers after all, but there's no reason they should grow up assuming that they can make messes with things they don't own. they also know that they can't open any food at the grocery store until after we pay for it. when they were too young to understand that and they needed something to keep them occupied, we'd pick out a snack for them, pay for it, open the snack, and then do the rest of the shopping. positive parenting is lovely and all, but in certain circumstances you need to reprimand your child, yes, in public. if my kid opens a snack in the store before we pay, I will take it away and remind him that it's not his yet.

First of all, I think that dangerous behaviors like running into the street are in a separate category. Why? Because here, the goal is simply to protect them NOW. So you need "quick fixes" to stop the behavior immediately. However, quick fixes are not a good approach in general, when you're trying to teach good middos and self-esteem.

Which brings us to the paragraph that I quoted. Why do you think that speaking nicely to children contradicts anything that you wrote above? It's only mentschlich to teach children to clean up after their own messes. I'm not quite sure where yelling comes into the picture.

I don't think speaking nicely contradicts what I wrote. I was irked by the op's idea that parents should wait to reprimand their children at home. the best time to reprimand is immediately, at least with small children. I hate seeing parents in the grocery store let their kids open snacks and eat them before paying. it's not teaching proper behavior, it's bribery, and it shows that the parents can't say no. and I hate seeing parents talk to their tantrummy kids in the street in a sickeningly sweet I'll-be-embarrassed-if-you-don't-behave-yourself-and-I'll-give-you-anything-to-get-you-to-stop voice. I think reprimanding kids immediately is better parenting than waiting. if the kid doesn't like being reprimanded in public, it's up to him to prevent it. my kids are ok with me saying no to them in the street. if anyone other than me or my husband do that, they get offended. it's not a question of reprimanding in public, it's a question of knowing how to do it effectively. those kids who are so offended by the practice that they go otd are a) not the norm, and b) giving it as an excuse. no kid is going to give you a full reason for going otd unless you are his or her therapist, and even then you won't get the whole picture. it is ridiculous to be lax about our parenting standards because a kid might go off the derech. the goal of parenting is to teach your kids proper values and morals in a way that is appropriate to each child's personality. it is not to prevent your child from going off the derech. yes, the two are similar, but the parent should not be thinking of the possibility of a kid dropping frumkeit unless the kid shows signs of it being a possibility.

anon

Thu, Jan 07 2010, 9:43 pm

Mummiedearest, in theory I don't disagree with anything you're saying. I guess it's just a matter of how the reprimanding is done. Reprimanding is different than yelling. And toddlers aren't humiliated in the same way that older children are. Which is a good thing, because yes, toddlers need to be taught in the here and now (e.g., cleaning up a mess they made in the store) whereas you can be mechanech older children when they get home. And saying "no" is not yelling or humiliating (unless you're saying NO!!! Mad

). So again, I don't think you're disagreeing, it sounds like you're making a side point about other pitfalls that parents can fall into.

mummiedearest

Thu, Jan 07 2010, 10:04 pm

anon wrote:

). So again, I don't think you're disagreeing, it sounds like you're making a side point about other pitfalls that parents can fall into.

perhaps I am addressing a side point. I just feel it's worth addressing. more and more I see parents who can't say no to their kids and wonder why their children are bratty. and sometimes you do have to reprimand an older child in public. I sincerely hope that I do a good enough job with the kids when they're small so I won't have to reprimand them in public when they're older. but I will do it if and when it is necessary. and if necessary, I will have my children apologize in public, too.

anon

Thu, Jan 07 2010, 10:09 pm

amother wrote:

I do think that parents have to be very careful not to embarrass their children in public. However, how can you say that a parent should never raise their voice to their child- only at home?! Some of us are just loud talkers in general! It really irks me that those with that quiet aidel personality get all holier than thou on those of us who are friendly loud ppl in general. My voice is probably always raised. Even when I talk in a normal tone. I talk LOUD.

I am most definitely not quiet and aidel. And I often do find myself talking too loudly in public and I wonder if I should feel embarrassed by myself. There's a difference between talking loudly and raising your voice in anger. One is "your personality" and the other is yelling.

And I personally do sometimes raise my voice in anger at my children. However, I ADMIT THAT IT'S WRONG and I am ALWAYS WORKING ON MYSELF. I don't think I would ever do it in public, but I certainly sometimes lose my cool at home. That doesn't change the fact that it's wrong and detrimental and I need to work on my middos so as not to hurt my children.

mummiedearest

Thu, Jan 07 2010, 10:29 pm

anon wrote:

mummiedearest wrote:

I sincerely hope that I do a good enough job with the kids when they're small so I won't have to reprimand them in public when they're older. but I will do it if and when it is necessary. and if necessary, I will have my children apologize in public, too.

It is a Torah concept to give rebuke in private. It's not a simple matter (from a halachic perspective) to embarrass and humiliate someone. I believe that children deserve such respect, just as adults.

it's a question of definition. reprimanding the child by notifying him/her of the problem in a quiet tone that no on else can hear is still rebuking, and if it's in the street, it's in public. but it's still a private rebuke. the torah does not say that we may not do any rebuking outside the four walls of our own personal home space. I do not mean to embarrass my children. supposing my kid is playing at a friend's house and I'm visiting with the mother. if my kid does something to his friend that warrants an apology, my telling him to apologize may be in a private manner, but the apology may be public, as the friend's mother and I are there as well. I don't think this is an unusual situation. my kid would have the option of taking his friend to another room to apologize, but if his friend is too insulted to move, he's going to have to apologize in front of the mothers.

pecan

Thu, Jan 07 2010, 10:33 pm

Like almost everything, it depends.
If your child runs into the street, they should get spanked. I have seen mothers who talk to their kids and try to ridiculously reason with a kid and the kid tunes out and I guarantee, they do it again sometime.
If a child needs a timeout in the store, give them one.
If a child did something dangerous, or took something that didn't belong to them, or hurt their sibling and you have to be home in fifteen minutes, then yelling ain't the worst thing, as long as it's controlled and solution-oriented. The kids will be fine and they do need to hear that what they did was wrong.
Yelling is just a bad habit.
Degrading your kids is different from yelling.

the world's best mom

Thu, Jan 07 2010, 11:32 pm

Well, Dolphin, you said to ask for advice, so here goes. How do you parent positively without yelling in public when you are walking in the strret and your
-4 year old wants to pet the dog on the next block and is running too far ahead while
- your 3 year old is half a block behind you, standing still and crying that she can't walk and
- 18 month old is hanging out of his stroller by the shoulder straps and is about to fall on his head?
Yes, these are all typical things my kids do all the time, and yes, I yell at times like this.
I could use advice for bathtime too. Here's how bathtime goes:
-4 yr old is pouring water on 3 yr. old's head
-3 yr. old is crying and kicking 4 yr. old into the water
-18 month old climbs out of the tub, stands on the toilet and throws tooothbrushes around the bathroom.
Any advice?

Last edited by the world's best mom on Sun, Jan 10 2010, 9:28 am; edited 1 time in total

life'sgreat

Fri, Jan 08 2010, 12:41 am

dolphin wrote:

woah! First of all to the one who said I sound self rightous, I did and you are right and I am sorry about that. To all those who were positive-Thank you so much. We are in the minority. To all those who were cynical it is because I struck a nerve. You all know deep down that I am right. No, not all children who are yelled at in public go off the derech. That is not what I wrote. Also if children are screamed at but at the same time they recieve an abundance of love they are fine. BUT I DO REPEAT-YELLING AT YOUR CHILD IN FRONT OF ANYONE ELSE IS DEGRADING AND DESTRUCTIVE TO YOUR CHILD. It is a habit that a lot of mothers have gotten themselves into and it needs to be worked on and it is very very hard to stop. I have never yelled at any of my children in public. NEVER! And if I scream at them in private or at home-I ALWAYS APOLOGIZE. The way to discipline is by being firm and assertive and not by raising your voice.

a. Way to project with the bolded. As I said, I don't think I've ever reprimanded my son in public. So no, it isn't about me. It's about the blanket statements and assumptions.
b. There are bazillions of children that are yelled at in public and they stay frum.
c. There are even more children that don't get yelled at in public and unfortunately go OTD.
d. It's great that you never yell at your child in public. But perhaps you are the one that um, does something else that's bad for your children.

Parents are human and to make such blanket statements and give diagnoses over the OTD situation can be hurtful to many.

the world's best mom

Sun, Jan 10 2010, 9:31 am

the world's best mom wrote:

Well, dolphin, you are disappointing me. I was really waiting for your advice on this matter.
I agree that yelling at kids is not the best method of discipline, but when parenting multiple difficult children, I fail to see how it is practical not to yell ever. I would love to hear your opinion.

Grandmama

Sun, Jan 10 2010, 10:39 am

Many years ago, when I was a new mother, what made me control my voice and what I said was the fact that I had an English-speaking cleaning woman once a week in my home. On the day the cleaning woman was there I dared not raise my voice, it would be a chilul Hashem. Then I started thinking, and controlled my self most of the time....After a while, it just became easier, and the more I learned to speak softly, the easier it became. My children have rarely heard me yell or use foul language of any sort. I would never degrade or insult them or call them names. I grew up with relatives that did that, and know how hurt I felt, and I would never do that to my children. I tell them every day how special they are, how much I love them, what a blessing they are in my life, and how rich I feel having them around. This is the truth!
But I say it over and over, every day....So when should I yell???

BeershevaBubby

Wed, Jan 27 2010, 1:51 am

dolphin wrote:

Actually, most of the cynics are that way because you're tossing 'facts' out without any sources whatsoever to substantiate The Truth According To Dolphin.

dolphin wrote:

BUT I DO REPEAT-YELLING AT YOUR CHILD IN FRONT OF ANYONE ELSE IS DEGRADING AND DESTRUCTIVE TO YOUR CHILD.

You are aware that in 'netiquette', typing in all caps is considered yelling?

dolphin wrote:

And if I scream at them in private or at home-I ALWAYS APOLOGIZE. The way to discipline is by being firm and assertive and not by raising your voice.

How does that work exactly? "I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU JUST COLORED ALL OVER THE WALLS!!! I'm sorry!"

How effective is that for you? Either you discipline your children (and BTW, waiting even 10 minutes after the fact diminishes your point) or you don't. But telling them no and then apologizing for it seems counterproductive.