sub forum for imamothers losing their emunah

shabbatiscoming

Wed, Dec 15 2010, 4:09 am

shalhevet wrote:

hadasa wrote:

Shalhevet, what we are saying and what you are saying is not all that different. The end of the matter is that we are left with the question, "WHY?", to which we have no answer - in this world. And we will continue to ask it until Moshiach comes.

Since we have no answers, and no way of finding out the answers in this world, there is no point in asking. There is a point in trying to guess what we should try and improve to prevent further tragedies. There is comfort for people in trying to guess what higher purpose something had. But in the end they are only guesses.

The very fact that you wrote your why in capitals, shows your tone. That is not a tone of Jewish emuna. That is not seeking out answers to try and better understand ourselves and Hashem. It is challenging Hashem's ways.

I completely disagree with this. I was taught that questioning is not bad and it can even bring one closer to HaShem.
I wont be specific, but something bad happened to me when I was a bit younger (no, not abuse CH'V) and when I was in sem I went through a very trying time with HaShem. I thought that he just did not exist. But then I asked many questions to my parents and my rav and BH for the fact that they were open to my questions and because of that I was able to get to a much better place and believe all for the good again. But if I would have just stayed quiet and not asked anything, I am more than 100% positive that today I would not be a frum jew.

hadasa

Wed, Dec 15 2010, 4:44 am

shalhevet wrote:

I guess this is where we differ. To "try to guess what we should try and improve to prevent further tragedies", yes. I couldn't agree with you more.
But "trying to guess what higher purpose something had", no. We are not privy to His cheshbonos. And "Since we have no answers, and no way of finding out the answers in this world, there is no point in" trying, with our limited human minds, to figure it out.

So what's the point of asking "why?" if we won't get an answer yet? I think the point of questioning is that we don't become complacent. That we don't say, "Oh, well, tragedies happen, but they're all for the good, so we may as well accept them." Hashem does not want us to become complacent about tragedies. He wants us to be shaken by them to the core. That's what the "WHY?" symbolizes.

Ruchel

Wed, Dec 15 2010, 5:22 am

Quote:

Tamar Elor in her book about learned and ignorant or whatever it is called in English (I read it in Hebrew) explains how in the Gur BY here they girls are taught things but at the same time they are taught that the true pinnacle of belief is that of their illeterate great grandmothers who didn't know prayer who didn't know Hebrew who had never learned any book learning at all but had "emunah in their heart"....meaning with all the learning, the "pinnacle" of what a good woman should believe is "emunah peshuta" of illiteracy and ignorance.

I don't think they mean it's great to be illiterate. I think they mean these women's emuna was full and unquestioned and "perfect" and (while being learned) we should want to emulate this emuna.

I also think the true pinnacle of emuna is emuna by itself and not because of XYZ. Like children, yes also like illiterate people. Which doesn't mean all of them have emuna (though non frum kids often have it before it's squashed by people around Mad

). Which doesn't mean nowadays education is something optional, not quite, with all the "Bible criticism" and other apikorsim.

There is this story of this old French rabbi who refused to have his 7 (I tthink) children learn "counter-criticism" to keep them "innocent". Lo alenu all of them converted. He promised to Hashem he would do differently if he had a last one! It happened, and he raised this one with "weapons" against atheism and Catholicism, and BH that one became a big rabbi!

freidasima

Wed, Dec 15 2010, 5:53 am

No Ruchel they literally mean illiterate not in terms of not knowing how to read and write but not ever learning anything of value, because the general idea is that the minute women learn anything including basic stuff they are just messing up their beliefs. The more you know the more you question and that is no good.

Now I certainly don't buy into that and basically I'm sure that a lot of you don't either. But you should know that's the line behind a lot of what is being taught in many of the seminaries (high school age and up).

Shal and I agree with each other up to a point. I really don't know whether G-d involves himself in each and every step. I don't know whether there is any hashgocho protis. Basically if we look at the tanach you had two choices. To accept, blindly, not knowing why and just doing it because G-d said and if you didn't do it, there was a chance you would get zapped or at least you believe you might get zapped and who wants to get zapped....and your other choice was simple. Read the book of Iyov, Job. Barech elokim vames. Curse G-d and Die! Says is wife. Meaning it's not even a question of believeing or not believing, it's more a question of accepting or not accepting.

In those days, remember ladies, original judaism like? Well in those days either you accepted or you cursed G-d. And the belief was if you curse G-d you die. End of troubles. Like suicide but with a divine noose and not one you put on your own neck.

So back to the dilemma between Shal and me. She believes there is a reason. I'm not sure. After all there were enough Jewish phillsophers who wrote that there is not necessarily a direct reason. A divine plan? Yes, but a direct reason? No way.

She believes that G-d cares about everything you do. I'm really not sure and tend to believe the chachomim who said "you do because it is written but not because G-d cares, or intervenes etc."

So why did he give us a set of rules to follow? Who knows. And why the heck follow them?

Well there is a general connotation in philosophy whose name I forget but it's based on the premise of "just in case". Just in case G-d does care and he really exists as we believe it and he really does have the power to zap you....just in case that is true, follow the rules.

Basically you know, that's what most people do. Just in case. And more likely they follow them because they live in a community that would ostracize them if they didn't. But you know, since the creation of modern society and mobility and you don't have to live in X community but can move, and there are lots of people who believe different things and you hear about them, there are LOADS of people who don't follow the rules. Because the community doesn't ostracize them because they aren't there any more.
That's the majority of people in the western world you know, of all religions and all denominations.

Now I like sources. And when I go back to the sources I see sources describing a G-d of vengence, fire, justice, law. That's the Bible. That's most of the neviim and kesuvim. I only see the G-d of mercy all the time mentioned at the time of the mishna and talmud. That's a LOOOONG way after the Bible. Where was the G-d of mercy then? This takes us back to the concept of teshuva that we argued over, and the concept of what original Judaism was like and original Jewish belief was all about and how what we think today is Judaism is really the layers that were added on throughout the ages and not the original from the time of matan torah, har sinai, avraham avinu, kibush haaretz, the kings etc.

So...here we part ways. Because many if not most of you will say what you were taught. All that was added on later was really there in the beginning because it is mesorah. To which those people who were taught like me and believe like me say, we don't know what was really mesorah and what was not, other than tangible concepts like tefilin, esrog, schita, etc. that you can touch, see and feel. We KNOW that was mesorah as there has never even once been a dissenting opinion about any of what those things from the bible were. But as for belief? Concepts of what G-d is? Concepts of repentance versus forgiveness or justice? There are loads of arguments all over the place between various Jewish thinkers of various ages (back to Rambam, Ramban etc.) over these concepts. Hence if there is supposed to be one single, singular immutable mesorah, there sure isn't in those topics. Which to the shita to which I belong and in which I was educated, means that this is a development, and not any original mesorah.

But again, here most of you and I have long parted ways, because you will claims it's all mesorah while my rabbonim and teachers will claim it is not. And that lots of what you call mesorah is not at all mesorah but a developement in Jewish thought and belief (and practice in some things too) over time in response to situational factors.

And as we then belong to two not only different but opposing shitos, there is no reconciling them.

Ruchel

Wed, Dec 15 2010, 6:08 am

Quote:

If that's what they mean, I disagree.
There were generations (in some circles, still today) of women who didn't learn kodesh so much or at all, and it certainly didn't help them with emuna, because there was exposure to "other ideas".
On a desert island it can work...
And if they believe so, it would be the same for men, so men too should be kept in the dark! (Btw there were definitely places and times where most men could barely read - or even learned the prayers by heart, I attended such a seder where the husband at been taught everything by heart perfectly, but not to read!).

I learned that even things that appeared/came "later" were given to Moshe rabbenu (just kept "for later") or deduced/linked from such laws (hence the mesora thing). And certainly there are different shittas, and that's good! 70panim le Torah, and gives us learning material Wink

freidasima

Wed, Dec 15 2010, 6:16 am

Well Ruchel that's what you were taught because your teachers bought into the "ignore the facts" line as far as many see it, meaning it's too easy to say "everything is mesorah". What do they base it on? Belief? That's not enough when you have a dissenting voice.

As for why not men? Because women are the devil no? Aren't we the bearers of original sin? We are the great forces of evil if we get too smart...oops, that's the other religion, right? And that's the crux of the matter. This teaching that you will find all over BYs today in EY at least, is based on a totally Xtian premise...and so, if we are getting straight as in shooting from the hip, is that concept of "pure illiterate belief" of a good deal of chassidus...which was a movement that started in very Xtian areas (yeah yeah get the rotten tomatoes out to throw at Freidasima) and therefore there are more than one Xtian style concepts that entered it....including the illiterate is the purest. And poor is good, and a whole lot of other stuff that you would never find in any yiddishkeit before that.

PinkFridge

Wed, Dec 15 2010, 9:52 am

Freidasima, I understand "Just in Case" Judaism. But for me, this is not the way I operate all the time as a philosophy; it's something I use as an anchor to ride out the tough waves (sorry for mixing metaphors).
But we can add that to what simple folk like me (and I do consider myself simple; I'm fascinated by ideas but not an intellectual and don't have a head for science) practice - So What Judaism. Whether or not the world was created in 6 literal days or eons, it doesn't affect my relationship with Hashem and how I folow the laws and live the life He wants of me.

And you'll like this story. When I was in seminary it was proposed to teach us Kuzari. I was really gung ho. My roommate was aghast - it'll raise shailos we never had, shter our emunah, yada yada. (One of the faculty called her, The Girl Who is Waiting for Moshiach.) Upshot: we did learn Kuzari. Not that I remember anything. But I do remember feeling that, cool, there are good answers.

But I'm all for questioning. OTOH, I do subscribe to the belief that - and you can chalk this up to yeridas hadoros - the older generations had a lot more faith than we do. And not even so old. As I told a relative (American born, she was pushing 70 at the time, a few years ago) who was sitting shiva, she had more faith and clarity than all her DILs and all the young women in the room with their fancy BY education, when all she got was some Talmud Torah and seriously committed, but not as learned as the next generations, parents. She understood that Hashem had a plan, that she had tremendous bracha all those years, and much more. Not denying her pain, but putting it in a framework that would take her through the rest of her years.

There were gedolim of a century or so ago who were thrilled with new inventions, because the hamon am were losing their koach hadimyon to see Hashem as the "Eye who sees, the Ear who hears" as in Pirkei Avos. Yup, yeridas hadoros due to our experiencing such a lengthy galus. We needed some help to get back this ability to internalize it.

gryp

Wed, Dec 15 2010, 10:24 am

shalhevet wrote:

Sorry Lub ladies, but I get the chills every time you write about questioning Hashem. Vayidom Aharon - the highest level is just to be silent, understand we don't understand, and go back to being avdei Hashem. And even those of us who can't manage that can at least say - this is so hard, we can't understand, to us it looks bad (which is why there is a bracha of Baruch Dayan Haemes), but Hashem is behind it all and for Him this is the way the world should run.

We've been through this before, let's do it again.
There is the Aharon model and there is the Moshe model. Maybe one day I'll understand the reason why you choose to be like Aharon and we choose to be like Moshe, but for now: When the Dor Hamidbar were being tested by Hashem and failing, and Hashem consequently punished them for it, what did their leader who loved them and cared for them the way he did with his flock of sheep, do? He went straight back to Hashem and said: "Lamah Hareiosem La'Am Hazeh? WHY did you do bad to this nation?"

Was Moshe expecting an answer? Probably not. Do I expect an answer when I complain to Hashem? Nope. Will I still ask? You betcha.

Why is this so? Because when there are two in a relationship, they give each other feedback. And while I don't expect to hear G-d's voice any time soon, I still know that He wants to hear mine.

GetReal

Wed, Dec 15 2010, 10:46 am

GR wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

GR wrote very well.

I'll add - that what I bolded in what you wrote is exactly the Lubavitch shita. When other rabbanim were finding justifications for the Holocaust, the Lubavitcher Rebbe said that we cannot look for reasons. We need to accept that this is from Hashem and it is good.

But the Rebbe adds - that Hashem is all-powerful, and He is capable of doing good in a revealed way too. So we accept that what we see as bad is actually good. And we daven that Hashem should bless us with only good that we can see as good.

We ask for a shana tova u'misuka (good and sweet year.) because there is good that feels bitter to us. We ask Hashem for revealed, sweet good.

gryp

Wed, Dec 15 2010, 11:12 am

Quote:

GR you don't like it because it goes against everything you have been taught. But hey, you were taught chassidus which was an entire movement opposed to this thought because it scared the masses and so...a whole new philosophy was created. Yesh Meayin Creatio ex nihilo. Yofi. But it isn't what yiddishkeit was all about for centuries and centuries and centuries.

The problem I see here very clearly, Freidasima, is that you are very confident in what you think is happening around you in all circles.

FTR, I am canceling the words: "what you have been taught." Most of the Chassidus that I learned was not from the mouth of a teacher telling me what to think. Tanya, anyone can learn alone with the book "Lessons in Tanya"- the original Tanya with translation and explanation by a very respected Mashpia in Lubavitch. Sichos and Maamorim, all you need to do is be able to read and understand Hebrew. The more difficult ones, are usually not difficult in comprehension but difficult in one's familiarity with Seder Hishtalshelus.

Chassidus grows on you. The more you learn it, the more appreciation you have. The more you are exposed to it, the more you look for it. If you want to compare Torah learning to having a delicious feast in front of you (sorry for the unChassidic analogy Smile

), it is like having your favorite food (whatever that is) before you, but without Chassidus, no one put salt or spices in your food. Or there is no wine to drink with it.

You can't throw out a phrase like "Yesh Me'ayin" and insist that you know what Chassidus is. That is like saying you know how to read English when A is the only letter of the alphabet you know. Chassidus has been from before Creation, and is as old as the Torah itself. It was only revealed much later when appropriate- at the time when people didn't know much and were in danger of losing what they had. There was also a tremendous split between the simple people and those who knew how to learn Torah, and the latter treated the former like no better than garbage. Chassidus isn't new, made-up anything. It is the hidden parts of Torah which were only revealed by Eliyahu Hanavi to the Baal Shem Tov, as a last resort, because of Klal Yisroel's situation. In addition, Chassidus is called "Toraso Shel Moshiach" and this is the Torah that everyone will learn all day when Moshiach comes. It was revealed at a time when Golus would soon be finished, to get Klal Yisroel ready for Moshiach as well. Chassidus served these two purposes: To uplift the Jewish nation from their down-troddeness (if that's a word) as well as to prepare them for what is to come in the future.