SOS Kashrus Situation...

amother

Wed, Apr 13 2011, 7:01 pm

A close family member is making a simcha in their home. There is no way I can just not go, no excuse good enough, I am the closest relative they have locally and it would hurt them terribly if I wasn't there.

But I really don't trust their kashrus. And there's no way I can just claim to be more machmir or anything, because they THINK they are super-frum, machmirim, etc. The reason I don't trust them so much is because they're just kind of flighty (not sure if that's the right word), I've seen things happen in their house (e.g. a kid might stick a milchig spoon in a fleishig pot and they'll just look the other way and hope it didn't happen...?! Not this specifically but that kind of thing), and I think that even if they think they hold themselves to higher standards, they don't actually know enough to really do so. They're FFB but not extremely learned (they think they are though. I also used to think they were until I started learning more myself and realized how complicated everything really is). What's more, I just found out that much of the food is being made by a different relative whom I really don't know if I can trust.

This is a full weekend event and it isn't close enough to home to, say, eat before we leave. We will have to be there ALL weekend. I will be staying in their house so I can't exactly sneak in my iwn food (though I think I will bring snacks so we don't starve)

I just don't want to make a scene or embarrass anyone. But I know some of the other relatives who will be there are the loud type, as in "HEY AMOTHER, WHY AREN'T YOU EATING ANYTHING????" And the hosts are sensitive types.

I guess I'm just venting because nothing about this situation is about to change. I have to go. I have to barely eat anything. And I have to grin and bear it and tell white lies about how much I loved Aunt Brenda's kugel or suchlike. And I have to sneak chocolate in my room when I can.

VENT. Sad

Raisin

Wed, Apr 13 2011, 7:25 pm

there must be some things you will be able to eat. Stuff that is bought, maye challos? offer to make the salads, so you will be sure they are checked.

also why not offer to make something?

lastly, speak to a rav about your kashrus concerns. They may be no issue whatsoever. Maybe you are being too frum becasue you do not know the halacha.

amother

Thu, Apr 14 2011, 1:50 pm

I really can't offer to make food. First of all, I just don't have time, but that I would have just pushed myself harder if it would help. But everything is all taken care of already (I didn't know until too late that they were catering their whole simcha themselves) and also, in the past they have always refused offers of help. But yeah, ideally I should have done that. Now it's definitely too late.

I did discuss my concerns with DH who knows quite a bit although he's not exactly a mashgiach. And you're right, he did tell me that I shouldn't worry because most things aren't a problem. But still, "most" isn't enough for me - how can I eat something with only a "high probability" of being kosher?! Also, I am completely mystified by how chilled out he is about this. He won't eat in dozens of places and homes that I would have thought completely fine, but here I have been there and seen stuff and he says "don't worry"?! Confused

mummiedearest

Thu, Apr 14 2011, 1:59 pm

speak to a rav. seriously.

about their kids doing things and them not saying anything about it:

do you think it's possible that they said nothing in order to avoid embarrassing their kids in front of you? maybe they set that batch of food aside and asked a shaila. there are times things seem to be problematic but can be "fixed."

I know someone who cooked pasta in a milchig pot, stirred it with a fleishig spoon, and then realized what happened. her rav told her they could eat it, but to eat it on disposables and not to add cheese or meat. so they ate pasta with marinara sauce using disposables. nothing terrible, the food certainly was kosher.

if a parent chastised a kid for treifing up something in front of guests, I'd be very upset. most people get upset over kitchen mishaps, and a kid would be doubly embarrassed by the situation. it's best to wait till they can discuss it in private.

mummiedearest

Thu, Apr 14 2011, 2:03 pm

oh, also, unless you are totally familiar with their kitchen, you don't really know anything. my in-laws have a very confusing kitchen, and I ask them what's what even if it's labeled. my mil has the whole system in her head and knows exactly what utensil is milchig/fleishig, even though I've found some that are mislabeled. that's the way she works. there is a system to her kitchen that just wouldn't work for me, so I'm extra careful to ask what to use when I cook there. you may not understand exactly what you're seeing when you see it.

saw50st8

Thu, Apr 14 2011, 2:09 pm

amother,

As a general rule, if someone tells you their food is kosher you are supposed to trust them. A lot of the type of issues you bring up can be "ignored" by you - there are all sorts of actual leniencies to rely on. Was the dairy spoon used in the past 24 hours for hot milk? Was it stuck in a pot containing actual hot meat?

Now they aren't great for relying on in your kitchen on a regular basis, but they come in handy.

amother

Thu, Apr 14 2011, 5:23 pm

OP here.

The fleishig spoon example was just off the top of my head, not specific. I wouldn't be so worried about a one-time example that I saw. I was just giving an example of the type of laxity I'm worried about. It's not that they wouldn't want to embarrass their kid; they're close enough relatives that I've seen some of their worst (and best!) discipline moments. It's just a general "tzufloigen" personality type. I don't think even they'd know if a spoon is ben yomo or not, there's stuff all over the place and they don't seem to care. Where I'm a little uptight, they're beyond chilled.

mummiedearest

Thu, Apr 14 2011, 6:34 pm

amother wrote:

to the tzufloigen personality type, everything everywhere has a system. trust me on that. you don't know that they don't care/aren't careful. it's not the way you would organize the kitchen, but it works for them. again, talk to your rav.

grin

Fri, Apr 15 2011, 1:08 am

this may be a case of being too machmir on kashrus and not machmir enough on ahavas yisroel and limud zechus. even if it's not up to your own super guidelines, it's probably kosher enough to eat and not enough of a problem to possibly cause a family feud/issue over.

many basar b'chalav mistakes such as the one you mentioned are OK bedi'eved, and that's probably why they "look the other way" - they're within the parameters of halacha to do so. Maybe you would kasher the spoon to be extra careful, but you're not required to.

But you are required to make enough "space" in your heart to judge them favorably and according to Hashem's expectations of them, not yours.

Kayza

Fri, Apr 15 2011, 2:44 am

amother wrote:

I did discuss my concerns with DH who knows quite a bit although he's not exactly a mashgiach. And you're right, he did tell me that I shouldn't worry because most things aren't a problem. But still, "most" isn't enough for me - how can I eat something with only a "high probability" of being kosher?! Also, I am completely mystified by how chilled out he is about this. He won't eat in dozens of places and homes that I would have thought completely fine, but here I have been there and seen stuff and he says "don't worry"?! Confused

I suspect it's because he knows so much and has a better handle on the Halachos involved.

Talk to your Rav. If he is a community Rabbi, you won't be the first person to be in this fix. If you have kids this is especially important, because starving yourself over a weekend is one thing, doing that to your kids is another.

life'sgreat

Fri, Apr 15 2011, 9:29 am

I feel like I don't know enough details about the real concerns you're faced with, but it seems to me (from what you wrote), that it's more about your own obsession of perfection than actual kashrus issues. A rav should be able to guide you and tell what's assur and what's ok. If we start looking into other people's kitchens to see how/what they do, even though they should be trustworthy, I have a feeling none of us would eat outside of our homes.

yOungM0mmy

Fri, Apr 15 2011, 9:41 am

I agree that probably everything they do is technically ok. My cleaning lady washed my fleishig Shabbos dishes in my milchig sink, with hot water, with the milk sponge, and then stacked them with all my milchig dishes in the drainer. I was sure that there was a problem, because the water was HOT - she was wearing gloves, there was real milk and meat, the milk was fresh, etc. but the dayan said it was fine. Am I going to let her do that every week? Of course not. But I did not have to kasher a single thing - all perfectly kosher.

grin

Fri, Apr 15 2011, 9:56 am

life'sgreat wrote:

if I looked carefully enough at my own kitchen, I wouldn't eat at home either!

DrMom

Sat, Apr 16 2011, 4:06 pm

amother wrote:

Sometimes, under certain circumstances, having a "high probability" of being kosher is indeed enough. There's a halcha (I cannot quote the source, and the exact details may be inaccurate) that goes something liek this: If you find a slaughtered chicken on the ground, can you assume it's kosher? If you are poor, and the chicken is found in a place where the majority of residents are Jewish, then you can assume it's kosher and eat it. If you are wealthy, you cannot make that assumption, even if the place where you found it is 100% Jewish.

So, under certain circumstances, you can indeed eat something that on has a "high probability" of being kosher.

I am not suggesting you apply this directly to your circumstances, but rather that asking a rav is a wise idea, because it is not always so straightforward, as there are certain circumstances under which it is not necessary to be as strict as you are. Ask and find out!

freidasima

Sat, Apr 16 2011, 4:34 pm

Sometimes asking a Rov isn't enough, even if he says that bedieved it's kosher you will spend the entire weekend feeling very uncomfortable and that's not a great idea. Work around it. Find excuses, Eat what you can and what you feel comfortable about and the heck with this aunt and that aunt. Let them talk. If they really get on your nerves turn to them directly and say "tell me, is the only thing that interests you in your lives what I put into my mouth? Can't you find anything else to talk about or is this such a fascinating topic that you just don't see anything else around you?"

I've done that but for other reasons. For health reasons there is almost nothing I can eat out of the house. And I have given up explaining, I just don't because here in EY at least people never just listen, they argue and argue and argue that "just one little bite won't hurt you". Either you just say to yourself "what a jerk" like I do (not out loud) and then do what you want, or if they get too loud and don't give up then give it back!

You don't have to give any explanations for what you eat and what you dont'. Say "I don't feel like it" and yes, keep something in your room to eat. I know people who go to in laws and do this as the food is awful, they graze in the room and then just nibble outside, like a carrot or something to drink and some challah (or matzo this week).

In short it's either to give in to what everyone is saying but if you are uncomfortable with that, then do what makes you happy.