Bus thread spin off

ally

Wed, Jul 06 2011, 10:56 am

Seraph wrote:

ally wrote:

Seraph wrote:

ally wrote:

Seraph wrote:

Chauvanism is distinctly non Jewish. Its disrespectful towards women, being patronizing, saying "You're weak, we need to protect you". Men standing up for women just because she is a woman and for no other reason is patronizing and chauvanistic and isn't how I'll be raising my kids.

Chauvinism is not Jewish but tradition gender roles are.
So we continuosly harp on about how women's bodies (and therefore minds) are not like the men but we don't really see women as a weaker relations when it comes to men being chivalrous about it?

Lose-Lose for the women for a change.

Judaism does not see women as inferior. It sees women as different, but that doesnt mean inferior. Chauvanism and chivalry views women as inferior and in need of assistance because she is a woman and not a man.

Is weaker inferior? Or is it just a physical reality? What is wrong with 'protecting a weaker relations'.
And IIRC, Yakov sent the women and children to the back when he prepared to confront Esav. Is that not "chivalry"?

There's different types of physical strength. Men in general, might have stronger upper arm muscles, etc... and might have an easier time carrying heavier things, and are able to build muscle mass more easily, etc... And that is why they fight wars, because they have that type of physical strength in greater abundance.
But that doesn't necessarily equate to being more physically equipped to stand on a long bus ride, for example.

I guess this idea of people doing something for me merely because I'm a woman bugs me, because I happen to be a very big and strong woman, probably physically stronger than many men, and if a puny man would insist on standing up for me, or carrying something that I'm carrying, because obviously I'm incapable and can't manage merely because I'm a woman, I'd find that offensive.

ETA: Regarding sending women to the back so they dont need to fight in a war, its also because women were raising kids and were pregnant, nursing, and if they died in the war, the kids would die as well, etc... and there wouldn't be continuation of the people. Thats why women didnt fight in wars, not necessarily because of physical inferiority.

For the record, there were quite a few famous warrior women and warrior tribes in history. Women arent physically incapable of fighting wars.

This is the problem with gender generalisations. You might be stronger than some puny guy and I happen to be smarter than my brother (and a whole lot better at critical and analytic thinking) and don't see why he can get smicha and I cant. And this is why I don't really subscribe to that whole "different but equal" line of thinking.

And regarding sending the women to the back - If a father died, the family was left without any money or source of income. If the mother died, the children would be raised by the other wives or the village. Also, Rachel was put and Rashi says this is because "Acharon Acharon Chaviv". She specifically of all the wives would not have been continuously pregnant/nursing.

The fact that there are warrior women means nothing. There are also matriarchal societies where the women rule the roost. But we don't live in one of those.

ora_43

Wed, Jul 06 2011, 11:18 am

I don't think gender roles has to mean gender generalizations. There are some (near-) universal physical differences - men can't get pregnant, even strong women are more likely to do permanent damage to their bodies if they serve in positions involving heavy lifting, things like that. But in general, I see the different roles as being different job descriptions (some of which are really just suggestions).

So there's a practical reason for, say, men being the first to give up seats on the bus (men are, on average, taller, stronger, and far far less likely to be pregnant), but there's also a job-description reason (even if there's a woman there who is taller and stronger than one of the men, still, Hashem made him "man" and her "woman" and for that reason alone he should be the first to offer his seat to someone who needs it, if not the first to offer his seat to her).

Dimpled

Wed, Jul 06 2011, 11:41 am

This Reminds me of. The time when I was towards the end of my pregnancy and this 50 yo lady had asked me to please get up for her elderly mother. Boy was dh upset that I did not stand up for myself.

Ruchel

Wed, Jul 06 2011, 11:47 am

ora_43 wrote:

I don't think it's incapable per se. It's not like they're saying the woman is too weak to stand, just that she should get preference over a man if there's a seat available.

I see it as a sign of respect, like serving a cohen first.

Ora, Shoshina, yup.

I think fewer frum men do it because they are afraid to have an interaction with the person or ill interpreted ("look, he wants to interest her"). But if you asked whether they need the seat or the woman, they would certainly say the woman!

As for the tiny guy giving his seat to the strong woman, how nice and thoughtful! but if he is sickly and you are well, you shouldn't accept. Problems begin if this offends him! lol

chanchy123

Thu, Jul 07 2011, 3:29 am

Seraph wrote:

Exactly!

Of course, if you know the woman will be standing because you are taking up a seat that she could otherwise sit on, and just because of your religious beliefs she must stand, it is only right to let her have the seat if it is possible.

Aribenj

Thu, Jul 07 2011, 9:36 pm

Hey, our gender doesn't have that many perks. So if someone wants to give me their seat on a bus, I will VERY GLADLY take it. Unless the other person looks like they could use it more then I could.

That being said, no one EVER gives me their seat, even 7 months pregnant and carrying a toddler... Just saying...

spoons

Thu, Jul 07 2011, 9:44 pm

To the original question: I don't think it's a 'frum' thing not to stand up- I live in NY and have NEVER been offered seats by men on trains. Even when pregnant I was not always offered- and when I was, I think they were mostly by women!
when not pregnant, I don't mind that I'm not offered a seat, I wouldn't expect someone to give his up for me- however!! I do NOT appreciate when there are no seats and someone is letting their little children take up a bunch. When I am in that situation, I have my child on my LAP so someone can take it.

observer

Thu, Jul 07 2011, 9:53 pm

I would not be offended if someone offered me their seat. I do think men are stronger.

proudima

Sat, Jul 09 2011, 2:02 pm

IMHO teens, regardless of gender should stand for anyone - and I will be disappointed if my kids don't! It's basic derech eretz. A teens life is not more tiring than just about anyone elses and they are in their prime. As a teen I stood for 25 yo women - respect! And I'm only 30 now. I would like to believe that things haven't changed so much over 15 or so years!