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-> Judaism
-> Halachic Questions and Discussions
amother
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 Sun, Sep 25 2011, 9:56 pm
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I just moved to a new community. Most of the women put makeup on and comb their hair on Shabbat. I was wondering if this was also the case in other communities. Where we were living the women didn't do either and I always thought that this was forbidden on Shabbos.
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shalhevet
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Mon, Sep 26 2011, 4:49 am
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It's forbidden (there is some Shabbos make-up which some rabbanim allow). Maybe in these days before RH we should be focusing on how to improve ourselves, and not others. I'm only answering in case you might think it's allowed.
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saw50st8
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Mon, Sep 26 2011, 7:31 am
| shalhevet wrote: | | It's forbidden (there is some Shabbos make-up which some rabbanim allow). Maybe in these days before RH we should be focusing on how to improve ourselves, and not others. I'm only answering in case you might think it's allowed. |
That's not 100% true.
A friend of mine (whos father is a Rabbi, lest you think he's an am haaretz) allowed his daughters to use very delicate brushes - like baby bristle brushes, to smooth out their hair. They had hair that generally didn't come out.
[I just confirmed this story with my friend]
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amother
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Mon, Sep 26 2011, 7:34 am
Thank you for your response....I'm not focusing on "improving others"....I was wondering for myself. Both my husband and I are bt. This is only the second frum community we've ever lived in...and what does RH stand for anyway?
Our first Shabbat here a lot of families came to our home to welcome us (it's a very warm community) and the women all looked at each other when they saw me without makeup and not looking very dressed up (like there was something wrong with me). So I asked some of them how they keep their makeup looking so fresh and they didn't understand what I meant. When I asked them if they were using Shabbos makeup they said that no one here uses this except for maybe 1 or 2 people so I thought it might not be halacha after all and only a custom. Even now I wonder if maybe there isn't a lenient opinion that I don't know about. This is a very large community (over 700 families) how can they all knowingly be doing this.
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amother
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Mon, Sep 26 2011, 7:57 am
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It is not clear that the issur of tzoveya applies to non-permanent coloring like makeup, which is why many people do use normal makeup on shabbos. The same way you can tie your shoes because it isn't intended to be a permanent knot (I.e. you typically untie your shoes within 24 hours), according to this opinion you can put on makeup that typically is intended to come off within 24 hours.
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amother
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Mon, Sep 26 2011, 8:41 am
I learned you can use mineral makeup (which is all in loose powder form) or something that doesn't involve other melacha. You can't just shmear on lipstick and concealer even if it'll come off in a few hrs. But there are guidelines for the mineral makeup up, too.
Btw, I always learned,( and I always learned in pretty yeshivish circles), that a natural bristle soft type of brush could be used to gently brush the hair.
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MiriW
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Mon, Sep 26 2011, 9:26 am
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I think that you should ask a shaila to a Rav that you trust. When I asked shailas about these issues - brushing hair and using makeup on Shabbos I was told that it is assur, you should ask the Rav and not follow what the community does.
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chocolate moose
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Mon, Sep 26 2011, 10:34 am
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Combing is one of the lamed tess melachos.
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Ruchel
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Mon, Sep 26 2011, 10:41 am
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I would also ask a shaila before assuming I can or can't.
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sarahd
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Mon, Sep 26 2011, 2:10 pm
| amother wrote: | | Btw, I always learned,( and I always learned in pretty yeshivish circles), that a natural bristle soft type of brush could be used to gently brush the hair. |
That's called brushing hair. Combing hair is done with a comb, and that is always assur.
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Amital
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Mon, Sep 26 2011, 2:16 pm
| amother wrote: | | Thank you for your response....I'm not focusing on "improving others"....I was wondering for myself. Both my husband and I are bt. This is only the second frum community we've ever lived in...and what does RH stand for anyway? |
(emphasis mine)
I'm pretty sure RH means Rosh Hashanah here.
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ora_43
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Mon, Sep 26 2011, 2:30 pm
| amother wrote: | | It is not clear that the issur of tzoveya applies to non-permanent coloring like makeup, which is why many people do use normal makeup on shabbos. The same way you can tie your shoes because it isn't intended to be a permanent knot (I.e. you typically untie your shoes within 24 hours), according to this opinion you can put on makeup that typically is intended to come off within 24 hours. |
That's not the same  .
The issur on tying knots is only for permanent knots (weaving), so whether it comes out in 24 hours makes a difference. The issur of tzoveya isn't just for permanent dye. AFAIK.
I can see how it'd make a difference in a case where it was really really necessary (like how it's better to write with non-permanent ink if you absolutely must write for reasons of pikuach nefesh).
Can you give a source for temporary dye being allowed, and not just "better than permanent dye if necessary"? I'd be interested to see.
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cheerio
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Mon, Sep 26 2011, 2:50 pm
HI.
In the book 39 melachos of shabbos by R' Dovid Ribiat it explains a number of issues concerning applying makeup on shabbos- among them smearing, tzoar- coloring, etc.
please ask your own rav- as VAST MAJORITY of rabbonim will say that it is assur. Some rabbanim may allow "shabbos makeup" (I have yet to gain a clear understanding of how it is allowed) and there might be some necessary steps and how-tos when applying it- I am not sure. It could be that the rabbanim of the community where you live pasken that it is ok (for whatever reason) or that they just do it eventhough it is not ok, (which unfortunately happens...)
combing/brushing hair: pulling out two hairs is considered breaking shabbos. (ex: if someone is a non jew and is converting to become a jew she is not allowed to keep shabbos fully until she actually converts. most rabbanim will suggest that in the privacy of her room she pull out two hairs and that is enough to fulfill the requirement that a non jew is not allowed to keep shabbos because pulling out two hairs is breaking shabbos.) If someone wants to use a soft baby brush that one would use on an infant as long as one is absolutely SURE that it will not pull out any hair then it is ok. A regular brush or comb will undoubtedly pull out hair.
unfortunately, this is an area where many women have a weakness...
in terms of what you can do- there are long lasting makeups that often stay on relatively well throughout shabbos. look for long lasting mascara, 16 or 18 hour lipsticks, etc. Wear your hair in a easy to manage style or if you wear a sheitel just be careful when taking it on and off so that it doesnt get too out of hand. and you can always smooth it down with your hand. You may even use a bit of water as long as it is not enough to actually wet the hair and you might squeeze it. (side note- brushing a sheitel is a different problem- and perhaps there are difference of opinions- but it is NOT the same issur as combing because that is only on something living- human, animal, etc. and a sheitel is not living hair.)
feel free to PM me or ask me more questions. I will be happy to answer you with a source 
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Hashem_Yaazor
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Mon, Sep 26 2011, 3:02 pm
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Just a note that while combing hair is assur because of the melacha of gozeiz, my rav holds it's NOT menapetz and therefore one is allowed to comb a sheitel since the melacha of gozeiz is not a concern. I was quite taken aback as Rabbi Ribiat does not pasken like that.
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cheerio
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Mon, Sep 26 2011, 3:20 pm
R' Ribait writes that the melocha of menapaitz MAY be involved but that one may use a brush that has bristles that are set far apart. (see Vol. 3 page 679. also page 735)
other problems that may be involved in brushing a sheitel- koraya (tearing) sossair (demolishing)
this is all in a case where brushing it may pull out hair.
makeh b'patish (final hammer blow)
(would apply even if not pulling out any hairs.)
im not trying to pasken- and the above is based only on this one safer (a very good safer!), but I am just trying to say that it is really not clear and that there are a number of problems involved so it is not a simple matter to just say "you could its no problem"
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chocolate moose
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Mon, Sep 26 2011, 4:41 pm
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If the sheital has been sprayed, you can't brush or comb it on Shabbos/yomtov; because of 'scultping".
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MaBelleVie
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Mon, Sep 26 2011, 5:12 pm
| ora_43 wrote: | | amother wrote: | | It is not clear that the issur of tzoveya applies to non-permanent coloring like makeup, which is why many people do use normal makeup on shabbos. The same way you can tie your shoes because it isn't intended to be a permanent knot (I.e. you typically untie your shoes within 24 hours), according to this opinion you can put on makeup that typically is intended to come off within 24 hours. |
That's not the same .
The issur on tying knots is only for permanent knots (weaving), so whether it comes out in 24 hours makes a difference. The issur of tzoveya isn't just for permanent dye. AFAIK.
I can see how it'd make a difference in a case where it was really really necessary (like how it's better to write with non-permanent ink if you absolutely must write for reasons of pikuach nefesh).
Can you give a source for temporary dye being allowed, and not just "better than permanent dye if necessary"? I'd be interested to see. |
This isn't a source, but I can tell you what my dh was told when he looked into it. Certain makeup is considered long lasting due to the way they produce it. They are not allowed to be used on Shabbat because its a more permanent form of coloring. Regular makeup (which meets certain criteria) is allowed because it is temporary.
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Seraph
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Sun, Oct 02 2011, 4:03 am
When I was in seminary, our rav was talking about the issues involved in makeup.
First there's the shmearing, and then there is the tzoveah aspect.
Even shabbos makeup that doesn't have shmearing has the issue of tzoveah, making something a certain color that wasn't that color beforehand. He said there is less of an issur to put makeup on an area that is already made up just that color was fading than it is to put makeup on a clean face.
For the record, I rarely wear makeup so I dont worry about makeup on shabbos, but when I was at the stage that I did wear makeup, I wore waterproof long lasting makeup and lipstick which looked decent until shabbos afternoon.
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Sherri
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Tue, Oct 11 2011, 3:35 pm
| Seraph wrote: | When I was in seminary, our rav was talking about the issues involved in makeup.
First there's the shmearing, and then there is the tzoveah aspect.
Even shabbos makeup that doesn't have shmearing has the issue of tzoveah, making something a certain color that wasn't that color beforehand. He said there is less of an issur to put makeup on an area that is already made up just that color was fading than it is to put makeup on a clean face.
| That's interesting because one of the guidelines in applying the special Shabbos Makeup is that it has to be applied onto a clean face (clean of regular makeup). http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/.....s.htm
I guess people apply the Shabbos makeup before and then reapply?
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