Ashamed of what I did

YaelB

Mon, Oct 17 2011, 7:58 pm

I would write as "amother" because I am truly, very, absolutely, ashamed of what I did, BUT I do want people to viciously attack me because I am anonymous. I have a husband and a child. And, for anyone who has read my posting about my FIL/MIL, a difficult relationship with my in-laws. I love my family, my cats, vacationing in New England, and davening at the Great Synagogue in Jerusalem. I think a lot about manners and proper derech eretz. I am a BT, and the daughter of a non-Jewish father. I studied art history in college. I am a classical feminist, meaning no, I don't believe that feminism is stupid, it gave women the right to vote in the western world, but I am appalled by "Girls Gone Wild" and all the garbage that goes on in western culture that devalues women.

Here is what happened: I went to visit a friend's sister who lives a haredi neighborhood on the other side of Yerushalyim. I had never been to this neighborhood before, and had to take 3 buses to get there. I got off a very popular, city-wide bus and got on another one with a shorter route. After getting on, I saw that there were about 3 people on the bus (all men.) They were sitting in the front part of the bus, all spread out. I sat down, alone, and started reading a book in English. A few minutes later, a haredi man came up to me and said something that I didn't really understand. I thought he was asking for directions. Then, a woman came up to me and said, "Hey, women are in the back," in Hebrew. (If I didn't understand Hebrew, I probably would have thought that she was insane.)
Why am I ashamed? I GOT UP AND MOVED. Like I was some sort of immodestly dressed woman. Like, "Oh, I should have realized that on a regular-seeming Egged bus, that there is actually a policy of gender segregation." I believe that gender segregation has made men in our society extremely overly-sensitized, like, a man who has never seen an ankle or an elbow will be turned on by it--when, really--come on-it's not a breast! I also believe that if a man has a probably with seeing women, that it is HIS job to deal with it. I am scared of the haredization that I see in Israel. I am scared that good people will not stand up against it, and now, I see that I am part of that problem. I was so shocked that I just stood up and walked to the back of the bus. As soon as I sat down, I wanted to scream. I wanted to shout, "How dare you?" I wanted to shout out all the bad words pouring through my mind. But I didn't. I sat there like a lame duck and looked at women wearing thick stockings.

I didn't scream "Here is what I don't understand: If someone is going to spill his seed from brushing past a woman, or seeing one, he should NOT leave his apartment--because he may, ultimately, come to do that. He should sit in his home and get therapy." This is insanity! How could I possibly NOT have objected at being, basically, turned into a relations object? (By a relations object I mean that am objectified--I am a woman--therefore bad--therefore dangerous!) No, I am a human being, who should sit wherever she wants to sit. What is wrong with me?

I am a strong, learned modern orthodox woman. I KNOW Rav Moshe's position on women and men sitting next to each other on buses (it's okay) and recently heard a mashal about a gadol haDor who, upon seeing a woman get on a crowded bus, said to his friend, "Will you get up or will I?" (Meaning that one of them would end up sitting next to her.)

auntie_em

Mon, Oct 17 2011, 8:28 pm

Since this is posted in Manners & Etiquette..

you did the right thing. On an established gender-segregated bus, it would have been extremely rude and inappropriate for you to refuse to move to the back. It would have also been even more rude and inappropriate to start shouting or otherwise expressing your disapproval to the people who had selected that bus, expecting that it would indeed be segregated by gender.

I suspect though, you are not asking if you were rude. I suspect you desire a discussion/debate about gender segregated buses...and all the rest of the issues you mentioned in your OP. That would get many replies, I'm sure, if it were in the Controversial Topic section.

chanahlady

Mon, Oct 17 2011, 8:31 pm

Private bus = not moving is rude and inappropriate.

Public, government-operated bus = sit wherever you dang well like

Barbara

Mon, Oct 17 2011, 8:46 pm

Here's my take.

They were wrong.

BUT who wants to argue with fanatics when you're alone, on a strange bus line, going somewhere you've never gone before. Sometimes we let the shnooks have their way today, knowing we'll fight them tomorrow.

YaelB

Mon, Oct 17 2011, 9:14 pm

This was not a gender segregated bus line, this was a regular Egged bus.

I don't want to open up a section on gender segregated buses. I respect that some people want to ride on them, and that is fine for them. I did not get on what I considered to be a gender-segregated bus, had I gotten on one, I would have not had a problem with sitting in the back. I just don't know why I did nothing, even in the slightest, to express my disapproval.

My real question is: What do you do when you feel like your values are being challenged? How do you draw the 'worth it' vs. 'not worth it' line? (to others.)

zaq

Mon, Oct 17 2011, 9:41 pm

What Barbara said is what I would have done which is what OP did. Most likely. Depends. If I'd had a really, really bad day , ripped my brand-new pantyhose as soon as I put them on, stood half an hour in line at the post office only to be told they didn't have my package, and so on and so forth, I'd have made a stink and a half just because I was aching for a fight. On a regular day, I'd probably have done what you did because, well, one doesn't argue with a lunatic, and you read all these stories about charedi lunatics physically attacking women.

red sea

Mon, Oct 17 2011, 9:45 pm

I kind of agree with Barbara, there is a time and place. When outnumbered in Rome isn't so much that. All it would be is a fight, not going to make the others on the bus open their minds to your way of seeing things nor would it prove any point to the other people on the bus when all is said and done, they would not get your point.