should I even be upset? not helpful guests.

amother

Sat, Dec 17 2011, 11:36 am

I've been feeling pretty ill the last few days with a bad cold. we had a bunch of guests for shabbos - some girls in their 20s, some bouchurim, and some older men.

After shul I asked my husband if he could make the salad and set out last minute things on the table. He asked the bochurim to help him and they did. The girls just sat there. I told the girls I was not feeling well.

As well as a bad cold I was suffering from agonising period pains.

my husband served most of the food during the meal, and I also served some food. No one offered to help.

after the meal everyone was sitting around talking. I got up and started to put things away. I thought people would offer to help, but not a single person did. I cleaned the entire kitchen by myself, no one helping. (I know if I would have asked they would have, but I didn't.)

now I can't help feeling upset as these otherwise very nice and pleasant guests. Help me dan lkaf zchus, especially at the girls, who I specifically told I was not feeling well.

supermama2

Sat, Dec 17 2011, 11:43 am

They could have been enjoying themselves so much that forgot their manners and later will or have felt bad about it. Perhaps some of them noticed you needed help but were too shy.. Next time, I would simply ask and I'm sure at least half of your guests will jump up to help happily. Feel good!!

amother

Sat, Dec 17 2011, 11:49 am

I have guests almost every week and some always offer to help. Just weird that this week they didn't. I don't feel comfortable asking guests to help. I ask dh to help and he might ask people to help.

the bochurim were staying with us and actually offereed to help clean up after shabbos.

StrongIma

Sat, Dec 17 2011, 12:00 pm

Tamiri wrote:

Telling girls you don't feel well is not the same as telling them you need help. My opinion. I don't think what they did was right, but I also don't necessarily think they knew what you meant.

I agree. They could have thought that you were excusing your slowness or telling them not to get too close. They can't read your mind. They could have also thought that more help wasn't necessary and could even be getting the way, as the bochruim were already helping.

refua shelima! kol hakavod for having guests even when you weren't feeling up to par.

amother

Sat, Dec 17 2011, 12:04 pm

StrongIma wrote:
Tamiri wrote:
Telling girls you don't feel well is not the same as telling them you need help. My opinion. I don't think what they did was right, but I also don't necessarily think they knew what you meant.
I agree. They could have thought that you were excusing your slowness or telling them not to get too close. They can't read your mind. They could have also thought that more help wasn't necessary and could even be getting the way, as the bochruim were already helping.

refua shelima! kol hakavod for having guests even when you weren't feeling up to par.

the bochurim helped before the meal. No one offered to help my husband serve so I had to get up and help him. No one offered to help me clear away.

the girls did tell me they are from a small family, maybe they are simply not used to large meals. they did not seem like selfish rude people, which is why I am puzzled

StrongIma

Sat, Dec 17 2011, 12:09 pm

people are all different - some hosts prefer not to have strangers in their kitchen - it could be that their moms are like that, or where they were hosted before.

I've also noticed, in my own hosting experience, that almost invariably, it's the oldest sibs that tend to offer to help w/o being asked. later-borns sit and wait to be asked.

StrongIma

Sat, Dec 17 2011, 12:20 pm

amother wrote:

my kitchen and dining room are the same room. It's not like no one could see me.

that still doesn't mean that you may have felt their assistance as interfering in "your" territory. There are those kinds of people, that don't allow even their own daughters into the kitchen. (imo, sad but true)

StrongIma

Sat, Dec 17 2011, 12:27 pm

amother wrote:

umm, they could see that I was not preparing the salad and stuff beforehand, so quite clearly I am not that sort of person.

OK:

possibility 1: they figured that you had all the help you needed form the bachurim and if they weren't doing it, you didn't need.

possibility 2: they are later-borns and it simply didn't enter their minds.

zaq

Sat, Dec 17 2011, 5:56 pm

Some people find guests to be more of a hindrance than a help and prefer not to have a dozen people underfoot in their kitchen. They may be picky about what goes where and have a major hissy fit if someone puts a fleishik bowl on a pareve counter or vice versa. Some people have small kitchen counters and can't handle ten people coming in all at once depositing dishes and whatnot all over the kitchen.
these girls don't know what your modus operandi is and had no way of knowing what you wanted.

Next time, if you want help, ask for it. Telling guests you don't feel well accomplishes nothing other than making them feel bad that they're imposing on someone who's sick. That remark could have been interpreted as don't get too close so you don't catch what I have or don't expect me to be too sociable. And FTR, nobody knew you were having cramps, so that's irrelevant.

The well-bred thing would have been to offer to help, but who knows? Maybe the last place they ate they were told sternly not to help and to stay in the dining room, and now they think they shouldn't offer.

chocolate moose

Sun, Dec 18 2011, 11:46 am

Not everyone is helpful or will take a hint - I know plenty of people who wants to be served on Shabbos, that's why they go out. Otherwise they could stay home or go elsewhere.

It doesn't go by families, either. Everyone is different. My sister never lifts a finger out of her own house, no idea why. She was always like that. And in shul, I'm always the one setting up the kiddush, etc.

amother

Sun, Dec 18 2011, 12:17 pm

zaq wrote:

Let me explain. I have guests every week. every week someone offers to help. So I know what is normal. It was just strange that davka the week I am clearly sick NO ONE offered to help.

the girls were from a small family, 2 kids, so I can only surmise they are just not used to big meals.

amother

Sun, Dec 18 2011, 12:18 pm

chocolate moose wrote:

we live oot and they were visiting tourists.

Fox

Sun, Dec 18 2011, 4:07 pm

amother wrote:

the girls were from a small family, 2 kids, so I can only surmise they are just not used to big meals.

I'm sure you don't mean it, but this sounds rather insulting and patronizing. Why does the size of one's family have to do with whether one offers to help? If anything, I would think that people from smaller families are more accustomed to helping at meals -- there are fewer hands to do the work!

That said, I completely concur with Zaq. There are so many reasons they may have felt they were doing the right thing by not offering, and other posters have mentioned lots of them. Yes, it would have been nice for them to have asked, but I'm not convinced it says anything significant about them that they didn't.

So be dan l'chav zchus in this case, and in the future, specifically ask for help -- don't hint.

amother

Sun, Dec 18 2011, 4:11 pm

A lot of younger people simply don't realize that when they are a guest, it's still appreciated to help out. I don't think I did nearly enough while I was single and hosted by others. It just didn't occur to me how much work goes into a shabbos meal.