For those of you who prioritize being independent

Seraph

Sat, Jan 07 2012, 4:19 pm

Fox wrote:

freidasima wrote:

Fox do you REALLY know people who think it is inappropriate to help pay for a grandson's bris but think it is ok to give their kids a free shop on their credit card every week or so? Really? They are willing to pay out...let's see, an average nice shop for a family with a few kids is around $1000 a month at least...meaning $12,000 a year and that's WITHOUT luxuries, but they think it is wrong to give their kids $1000 for a one time bris???? In a lifetime? Wow...

This is just plain dishonest and wrong of you. I said, "kick in grocery money from time to time," and you've changed it to "give their kids a free shop on their credit card every week or so." Please don't make up things I never said!

And, yes, I know plenty of people who would kick in grocery money from time to time, but feel that kids should pay for their own simchas.

My parents, for example. We paid for every bris on our own, etc... But occasionally my mother will pick up stuff from the grocery store for me and not expect me to pay her back- she'll say "I'm in the grocery store, is there anything you want me to pick up for you?" Usually its nothing more than 20 or 30 shekel, but there have been times where she or my dad has taken me shopping and stocked my house with a really large amount of stuff. Definitely rarely, but its happened. And they're more comfortable with that than paying for a simcha.

freidasima

Sun, Jan 08 2012, 4:59 am

The Rambam and all of chazal do not include people who deliberately put themselves milechaschila into situations where they plan to be dependent on public charity in order to live. That is considered by din "hona'as davar". Therefore it is incumbent upon us to check to whatever degree that status of whom we give zedoko to, in order not to promote the unhealthy and unjewish situation above. Many sages have written about this BTW throughout the ages if you check it out.

As for the din of zedoko one has to learn it correctly, including what is infered from sefer devorim. What we learn is that if someone who justifiably (not by putting themselves willingly into such a situation = called novol birshus hatorah) has need or has "laredet minechasav" by situation puts out a hand for alms, one should give him something, even a pruta. But that doesn't mean one has to "support him" even if his need for charity is justifiable. Chazal allow people right of choice, who to give their bulk of zedoko to. And the guidelines, including those of Rambam which are not din BTW but just a suggestion, are that the highest level is to teach someone to help themselves. From that also Rambam infers that if someone is given the offer to learn how to help themsleves and turns away from that offer, they are to be considered suspect in terms of being justifiably in need of zedoko but rather "mitchazeh" in terms of how they project themselves to outside society.

Learn the dinim. From the seforim. Not just from lectures. It's complicated and also very very logical.

Liba

Sun, Jan 08 2012, 5:20 am

FS, how does the Rambam expect a person to give tzedakah without knowing where it goes and still check them out thoroughly? That is his second level of tzedakah? Are you saying that people in the time of the Rambam needed less checking out than the do now and they didn't have such issues back then?

I have never had a rav say that.

In my world, we certainly don't call rabonim wrong when they have a firm basis in rishonim and chumash.

That is the ultimate in chutzpah bordering on apikorsus.

It doesn't matter how cynical you are, the halachos still don't change.

freidasima

Sun, Jan 08 2012, 5:30 am

Liba all rabbis teach us one thing. That one gives a pruta to everyone to be yotzei if someone puts out their hand, but to give more one must check if it is honaa. Because that is a chilul hashem. It is the a priori behind and before anything having to do with zedoko.

So my rabbonim have taught me. You don't seem to get the timeline behind what I am saying. It is the a priori which is at the basis of chumash. The torah is not dealing with a person who puts themselves milechaschila into a position where he has to live off zedoko. He is not even IN the cateogory of someone needing zedoko. He is considered a "nochel" or "novol" as I wrote before.

therefore to be yotzei if someone holds out their hand one gives a pruta. But as everyone knows that one can't live off a pruta that is the symbolic way of complying with never turning anyone away. HOWEVER, giving more than that is predicated by making sure the person is not a novol or a nochel. That's the din as I was taught it by my rabbonim and they were taught by their rabbonim. And so on.

amother

Sun, Jan 08 2012, 11:45 pm

Liba wrote:

My right wing Rav has said many times that he is at a loss why people ask him hundreds of shailos on hundred of topics all the time and hardly ever ask him about who and where they should be sending their tzeddaka dollars. He strongly recommends doing a thorough (sp?) checking before giving a significant sum to anyone.

Fox

Mon, Jan 09 2012, 1:13 pm

amother wrote:

Rabbi Chaim Dov Keller, sh"lita, has said the same thing. There are halachos that govern priorities in tzeddakah. I'm not sure how that applies to providing "support" to family members, however.

The hashkafa with which I was raised and to which I subscribe most definitely does not allow people to do what they want with their money simply because they earned it. While wealthier people are allowed to live somewhat more luxuriously than a poorer person, it is not all-pigs-to-the-trough for those who are more affluent. More affluence, in fact, brings greater responsibility to use the resources wisely and in a way that promotes the welfare of their communities and the Jewish people.

This is why it is ironic that people who go to their rav for advice about relatively minor matters are often strangely silent when the topic of spending or giving money comes up. When it comes to money, everyone's an expert! People will panic over a treifed pot, but feel perfectly competent to decide whether their general use of resources is appropriate.

BTW, I find it interesting that a whole industry of "wealth counselors" has developed to advise non-Jews in essentially this same way: help them use wealth in a way that benefits their communities and doesn't ruin their families. So it's not just Jews running to the rabbi before every trip to the mall; there are many thinking, concerned people who want to make sure that they don't succumb to the creeping problems associated with affluence.

The one-liner that I grew up with is as follows: "You can do whatever you want with your money. And when it becomes your money, feel free to do so.

yksraya

Mon, Jan 09 2012, 1:31 pm

Your grandfather wants to support your husbands torah and you should not stop him doing so. after all you use the money for healthy things or as you said boxed soup. if the question would have been expensive chocolates I might have posted otherwise. and in regard to feeling uncomfortable that other ppl see what you take: its not there business why and what you buy. feel proud, not guilty when you shop! your husband is in kollel the world stands because of torah.

Fox

Mon, Jan 09 2012, 1:37 pm

freidasima wrote:

And yeah, the reason that people get worked up about the financial behavior of the less affluent is because those less affluent often come to us for handouts which, if they would be a bit more responsible, often they just wouldn't need. So in a generation of frum people where it is no longer considered a busha to live off yennem's gelt (other people's money), that might explain why more and more of us have problems with how the poor live, particularly if by their hashkofo they make conscious choices which keep them among the poor instead of trying like everyone else, to work their way up to being financially able to support themselves.

Note, we are not talking about handicapped, sudden illness, etc. But people who are either doing it out of ideology, or out of being too stubborn to learn from others how to get out of their rut. And the world is full of both kinds.

I don't really disagree with you; in fact, you should hear me some time when I get into a rant about women who don't work outside the home but are nonetheless "too busy" to do anything. It's not a pretty sight, let me tell you, and I probably violate about fifty halachos every time I get going.

Ultimately, I think it depends on whether you see the glass half-empty or half-full. I definitely see people whom I feel don't do adequate hishtadlus. Unfortunately, most of them are employed by my clients (rim shot!).

But a whole generation? Most young people in my neck of the woods are doing exactly what you describe, regardless of ideology: going to school; preparing for the workforce; saving for a house/condo. Kollel is a given within my crowd, so most young women work to support their husbands in learning for a few years. Since they recognize that it is difficult to support a family on a single salary, the women generally end up pursuing advanced education, building a business, or at least developing expertise in a particular field.

Do people do stupid things with their money and their time? Sure! Do they create their own problems? No doubt! Do they take bad advice from people who are either ignorant or don't have their best interests at heart? Of course! But let's face it -- most of us create our own problems in one way or another. If organizations were truly organized, I'd be out of a job. And if people didn't engage in debilitating behavior or thinking patterns, there would be no need for therapists.

Doesn't mean I approve of stupidity -- I just recognize that it has plenty of company at every income level.