OU Guide to Starbucks??

amother

Wed, Apr 25 2012, 9:13 pm

I know CRC is pretty strict with what you can drink at Starbucks. Anyone know what the OU says is OK? Thanks!

Chana Miriam S

Wed, Apr 25 2012, 10:15 pm

http://cor.ca/view/175/perspec......html

amother

Thu, Apr 26 2012, 6:17 pm

This doesn't really tell me which drinks are acceptable. Supposedly, there's an OU list of drinks.

amother

Thu, Apr 26 2012, 6:57 pm

I want to know if the carmel frappochino is kosher?

MaBelleVie

Thu, Apr 26 2012, 7:02 pm

None of the frappaccino drinks are kosher. See kosherstarbucks.com.

amother

Thu, Apr 26 2012, 7:26 pm

What does the CRC say? They approve any of them?

Chana Miriam S

Thu, Apr 26 2012, 11:46 pm

amother wrote:

This doesn't really tell me which drinks are acceptable. Supposedly, there's an OU list of drinks.

I think you missed the point of the article. The COR is not telling you what drinks should be kosher, they are suggesting the consumer take responsibility for what they purchase: In other words, check out everything at every store you go to. My personal take is that if it is an americano, an espresso, and is made in a paper or glass cup, it is fine. I dont like syrups etc. but would check to make sure they had hashgacha.

from the article:

While we are not suggesting that one should stop purchasing products from unsupervised venues, because that would be impractical, we do suggest that the consumer take responsibility for what they purchase. Even if “everyone” is buying that brand-new Slurpee flavour or getting ice cream in that new parlor, one must still investigate that it is kosher.

I would like to propose a five-step framework that will help us determine the kosher status of unsupervised products:

1) Ingredients – Using an ice cream cone as an example:

· Verify that all ingredients going into the ice cream cone, including the ice cream, the cone and the toppings, are kosher by checking packaging and containers for a reliable kosher certification.

· Visual inspection of the package is mandatory to ensure that it bears a kosher symbol.[6] Company literature should not be relied upon as mistakes can be made and literature may be outdated.

· To clarify - a letter of kosher certification (LOC) which verifies the kosher status of a product does not certify the facility. If the consumer sees only the LOC, but does not see the symbol on the product, then he cannot assume that he is purchasing the kosher product cited in the LOC.

2) Cross Contamination – Determine whether there is any contact between non-kosher products or ingredients and the kosher product.

3) Equipment – Inquire as to whether any piece of equipment, or component thereof, that is used to make or serve the kosher product is also used for or cleaned together with a non-kosher product.

4) Process – What is involved in the processing of the product?

· If cooking is involved, what equipment is used in the cooking? What else is cooked with that equipment?

· Is bishul akum an issue?

· For a Jewish owned store, consider how chillul Shabbos affects the kosher status of some food products.

5) Halachic Guidance – Take all of this information and discuss it with a Rabbi at the COR or with your Rav. Surprisingly enough, a Rabbi may permit the purchase of the product even though some cross-contamination may exist between kosher and non-kosher product and equipment, depending on the specifics of the question.

MaBelleVie

Thu, Apr 26 2012, 11:53 pm

amother wrote:

What does the CRC say? They approve any of them?

Crc has a list of approved beverages on their site and their app.

seeker

Fri, Apr 27 2012, 2:11 am

MaBelleVie wrote:

None of the frappaccino drinks are kosher. See kosherstarbucks.com.

Can we clarify please, is this conversation all about drinks that are made in the stores and served fresh? because I thought I heard some years back that the packaged drinks marked K are indeed kosher supervised, including frappuchinos.

crl

Fri, Apr 27 2012, 6:15 am

Yes, the packaged bottled frappacinos with a K are kosher, but in the store, none of the frozen blended drinks (a.k.a frappacinos) are kosher. It used to be that you could order a "cream based" frozen drink instead of whatever they used but I believe they changed the forumla and it's no longer recommended.

amother

Fri, Apr 27 2012, 1:57 pm

chanamiriam, I read all of that. It still does not answer my question.

I know that everything needs a hashgacha, obviously. The question is about the way things are washed and handled in the store that also serves bacon and treif goods. CRC pretty much says that only the Americano is OK, while others say even the coffee is OK.

Therefore, I am looking for an OU list of drinks that would be permissible or not. I had heard that they may be more lenient with regards to lattes - yes, all the ingredients are kosher but according to CRC, since it is a hot beverage washed with other treif kailim, it is NOT ok.

Chocoholic

Fri, Apr 27 2012, 2:09 pm

I read somewhere they are changeing the colorant of some of their products, wonder if that will finally make them OK...

Chana Miriam S

Fri, Apr 27 2012, 2:39 pm

amother wrote:

amother- you DON'T get it. What the COR and the CRC are saying is that YOU personally are responsible to check the hashgacha of whatever you are having. Because of all the variables, no one can tell you that anything is 100% safe. The COR article also CLEARLY references asking YOUR Rav, so that you know personally what is acceptable FOR YOU. For real. Read the halachic principles behind the CRC essay. They indicate fully exactly what leniencies exist and which ones they have used (even saying that you should not use these leniencies in your home) and are very clear that there are so many permutations that unless you know specifically what you are dealing with, there is no way to make a blanket answer for everyone. According to them, for most people brewed coffee would be fine because of the kli sheini status of the basket, but they want you to know what you personally hold.

Why ever on earth you think the OU would be any less strict than the CRC is beyond me. These organizations have very strict standards and that is why we trust them. They are all at the same basic level. Neighbourhood hashgacha organizations (ie) the small ones you don't hear about unless you live there tend to be the ones who hold higher stringencies. Look at every major acceptable organization's web site. They all have lists of other acceptable hashgacha, and the OU and CRC and COR are on all of them.

I work in commercial Kosher food, and while something can be considered the very mehadrin because it is mehadrin, none of the major organizations would do anything that was not considered a minimum of leniency, or their reputations would be shattered. I would be shocked and dismayed if the OU made a blanket statement about any Starbuck's drink that was any different than the CRC or the COR say. It would be irresponsible and allow for too much error. I mean, look at you. You are looking for someone to say 'it's okay' in every circumstance, but it's not. Even the CRC guide is clear about glass versus paper and clear about the fact that for some glass shots are fine and for some they are not. That is where your local LOR, or personal OR comes in. Single purpose machines like coffee makers- it depends on how they are cleaned but also how you hold. Brewed for the masses black coffee (not something made specifically for you) is n general accepted by everyone- the thing to have anywhere- and I understand that straight from a lecture on the topic by the COR. Those leniencies for black unflavoured coffee are still in place. You have to ask about how they wash the baskets in stores where they sell hot meat, if you hold that that makes a difference, which many do not. But you are not asking about plain black coffee in a disposable cup, are you?

The way the CRC wrote their guide is exactly how it should be written and compliments the COR guideline very nicely. You can NEVER take anything for granted in these places, and must always be diligent for your own self and your own level of kashrut that you keep. You want to keep kosher? This is what you have to do. If you want a free pass, I feel certain you are not going to get one. Check every ingredient, every time. Make it in paper or glass if you hold that. I have worked with mashgiachs ( and am one myself) who assumed that things were still the same with certain items (like for instance, the canning process has changed in recent years and things that used to be ok without hashgacha are often not ok anymore.) If they don't check, they make mistakes. If it can happen to them, it can happen to you. So check, every ingredient, every time. and use disposables. That is how you get to be 100% sure. The CRC list clearly says that it's article was true as of Feb. 2012, but that does not mean things have not changed since then. There is no way for anyone to make a permanent list.

and to quote the CRC
'The good news is that there are many Starbucks locations that do not serve hot meat sandwiches. These are generally the Starbucks kiosks that can be found in airports, supermarkets, etc., and at these locations the cRc is comfortable recommending any drink made from kosher ingredients (even though some others use ingredients that may not be kosher). '

The ones that do serve hot sandwiches are addressed in the halachic principles which also have extensive lists of kosher and unkosher and questionable items.

Chana Miriam S

Fri, Apr 27 2012, 3:47 pm

http://program.ouradio.org/kos.....0.mp3

Chana Miriam S

Fri, Apr 27 2012, 4:05 pm

http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/.....e.htm

compared to crc, star k is very stringent, but still allows some leniencies. that is their corporate position

MaBelleVie

Fri, Apr 27 2012, 4:32 pm

seeker wrote:

MaBelleVie wrote:

None of the frappaccino drinks are kosher. See kosherstarbucks.com.

OP asked specifically about drinks AT Starbucks Smile

DrMom

Sat, Apr 28 2012, 1:50 pm

This all sounds so complicted/risky. I'd rather just pass altogether and order food someplace with a hecsher.

Chana Miriam S

Sat, Apr 28 2012, 10:46 pm

DrMom wrote:

This all sounds so complicted/risky. I'd rather just pass altogether and order food someplace with a hecsher.

You know, it's really interesting, but the shiur that my friend attended was by a Rav with the COR who is very machmir about these things. His take was two fold. First, that this should really only be a question that is asked by those who are inclined to do something about it- in other words- no one should be rebuked for drinking a latte or whatever unless you think they will be open to hearing about it.

Also that the black coffee thing was to his mind not as much of an issue but that was is an issue is that people should speak to their own Rav and find out what is the answer for them. My Rav is definitely Ok with black coffee in any coffee shop and so are many other Ravs, even very, very frum ones. I never asked him about how he feels about latte's but I don't order them. If I did, I would think carefully about asking because I would know I needed to do what he said. I do check the cream I use at every shop and know which ones locally are allowable and which not.

For Canadian Fancy drink lovers, apparently short of cream or chalav yisrael issues, all second cup drinks are kosher although obviously if they have no hashgacha they are unsupervised. In our town, Hamilton ON, we have a kosher Second Cup although I much prefer the coffee at starbucks, if I wanted something fun or iced, I would go to a second cup (or in particular the one in westdale if I was here.) The only variable is the cream- which in hamilton is hewitts and which a rav that works for the cor and lives a few houses down from me is the mashgiach for. the cream has no hechsher on it but is on the cor list on their web site.

MaBelleVie

Sat, Apr 28 2012, 10:55 pm

DrMom wrote:

This all sounds so complicted/risky. I'd rather just pass altogether and order food someplace with a hecsher.

That's a lot easier in Israel than elsewhere Smile

Chana Miriam S

Mon, Apr 30 2012, 10:44 am

The OU's position on Starbucks is that once the coffee they certify is sealed with their hechsher, they do not certify any stores and thus do not recommend any stores. They specifically say to speak to your own Rabbi to discuss the issue. Period.

Turns out they are more machmir than anyone else.

This is from Chana Raizel on the hotline of the OU. Today.

I just want to say that considering seven years ago, I had no clue about kashrut at all, I am pretty pleased with myself that I predicted they would not have a list of acceptable drinks and that they would say to speak to your own Rabbi. I am sorry it is not the answer you wanted but it really was the only answer possible.