Coming to a simcha empty handed

Tablepoetry

Mon, May 07 2012, 12:43 pm

HindaRochel wrote:

I don't see why you would think that. Dafka, someone who doesn't have the money maybe could use for their children's Bar/Bat Mitzvah, wedding and it is a way of giving without embarrassing. I think it would depend on how one gave. If you gave with a smile, and said something along the lines of "I'm so happy for you and (your daughter/son/etc)." why would they feel embarrassed?

You're right, in certain cases. It's a fine line. I agree that in certain cases one can give much more than one received without making it seem like charity.

But in general one can think of it like a hostess gift. If you host someone for a meal (say on Shabbat), they often show up with something. Now I don't write this kind of thing down, but I remember it.
If a new friend came with nothing for the meal, I won't bring her anything when I am invited to her place. It's not that I'm angry - LOL, not at all - I really don't need those chocolates or flowers or whatever. But I wouldn't want to embarrass her by bringing something when she brought nothing at all.
BTDT - I remember once going somewhere empty handed, and then a few weeks later when the woman came to a meal at my place she brought a fancy gift. Boy did I feel like a social failure.

If I'm the first one to be hosted I usually bring something cute and simple, say a couple of fancy kitchen towels wrapped with ribbon. That's pretty much the norm here. But if I host them first, I 'keep (unwritten) tabs' and take my cue from my friends.

amother

Mon, May 07 2012, 12:47 pm

Quote:

Its our "working class" friends and people we know we are suprised about.

I am not talking about the Israeli situation, because it's not mine and I can't speak to it.

This comes back to the issue of not knowing someone else's financial situation. This has come up again and again. My "working class" family does the following:

1. Pays for it's own health care for all members of the family--no Jersey care, etc.
2. Doesn't get food stamps
3. Doesn't work under the table--we pay taxes on every dollar we earn.
4. Drives cars that are 10 years old are older (not newly leased cars which seem to the the norm for kollel couples here)
5. I wear a synthetic sheital for $100 rather than the $1,500 ones that are normal for morahs and wives of kollel learners
6. Pushes an old Graco stroller or an umbrella stroller that I got for $10 at Walmart--no CityMini or Peg Perego or whatever the $500 stroller of the moment is.
7. Receive no outside support from family members

Perhaps when we "working class" people go to simchas, we should put a copy of our monthly budget in an envelope to justify our small gift or non-gift. Or maybe we should just stay home.

freidasima

Mon, May 07 2012, 12:53 pm

HR I think that Table meant in cases where people are basically on equal economic footing. Not in cases where it is an obvious (to all) and very large economic gap between the people involved.

Fox, halevai that what you describe for Bar Mitzvahs would be the case here. Because when it is accepted that one invites the whole grade, boruch Hashem that can easily hit fifty-sixty boys or more and if one isn't making a special "boys party" which can be much less expensive (and fun for the boys) one is "stuck" having them to the big smicha with friends, family, neighbors, etc. BTW in my day (as a bas mitzva girl) all we used to do was to have a big kiddush for the whole shul and that was so much easier...but that was over four decades ago and in a small frum community in America and boy have things changed!

Tova you ask a good question. First, here the Rabbi is just like anyone else in our kehilla, we aren't a kollel kehilla, he gets paid well and besides we are good friends. When their kids got married we gave them a very nice check and when our kids got married they gave them (from their registry) a lovely set of expensive pots. Totally equitable in this case. When there is a case of hakoras hatov or anything special that's different, but generally even rabbonim if they are staying for the meal, give a present, otherwise they just come for the chossen's tish and chuppa but don't RSVP for the meal. As for my secretaries, well, let's put it this way. The fact that they earn a lot less than I do doesn't mean that their husbands aren't big kablanim who earn three times more than my husband and I do together! Let's put it this way....If when they marry off their kids they do it in a very inexpensive hall with very cheap portions (one knows prices) that's one thing. But as the one's I have been to have made exactly the same kind of chasuneh's that I make for my kids in the same kind of places...well then we are once again equitable and everyone is expected to cover their plate. And you can be sure they know exactly how much we spent for our son or daughter's wedding, everyone here knows prices of everyplace...as I wrote, this is a very nosy country, to the less good but also to the good.

Israelimom are you stating that we pasken halocho straight from the Rambam or by the Ramchal? That's a new one to me...as for the Chofetz Chaim, depends what sefer of his one is talking about and no, many do not pasken according to the Mishna Brura today in various socially contrived situations such as the one I am discussing. As you are anonymous and we have no idea who you are, I also can't get so excited about your grasp of halocho simply because you keep asking something totally obvious. It is Rashi himself who states the conditions for what he calls Nekama and Netira, he is the one who uses the example of asking specifically for an item. And as I don't think you are a posek, can you bring me a rabbinic source that nekama or netira (if you are basing the entire concept on Rashi, as you did) does not require asking for something? After all that's Rashi's example. I'm not impressed that you keep quoting your own posts, we have already established that the examples you bring specifically state that they are discussing issues of Zedoko and Gemilus chasodim. Anything else that you wish to expand it to is your own peirush, it isn't in any of the texts you quote.

You kept saying that Nekama and Netira as a concept is explained by Rashi. Rashi is very straightforward. Now you are backtracking saying that you want another source saying that what Rashi wrote in very precise detail is correct. Rashi writes that one has to ask and be refused and then the other person has to ask you back for something and if you refuse based on his refusal that is nekama. Once again, RASHI is the one stating that one must ask. Now unless we are talking about using "american sign language" or "French sign language" of his time or whatever, asking is done verbally. End of story. If you disagree then show me a halochic source - you can start with the SA - which discounts Rashi's claim of what nekama or netira is. Sounds again like you really like the realm of touchy-feely without legal basis. Show us a halochic source that says straight out that the economic system described here is nekama. After all, we both live in EY don't we, lots of poskim and rabbonim around here aren't there...and as this is pretty much the accepted system here that everyone is familiar with, if it is SUCH a lav, as you claim, then I'm sure lots of rabbonim have spoken out against it and written against it and it won't be any problem for you to come up with a modern day posek who has written about this system and has called it nekama and netira and comes out against it...so let's see the source please...

And for a halocho teacher, which you claim to be, you seem to be awfuly rude, sarcastic and nasty. Not towards any concept that I may have written about, but you are bringing it down to the very personal level, to the person not the concept, which is not something that I did. I dealt only with the concept that you were putting forth...Is your bringing it down to the personal level by any chance nekama or netira for any perceived slight you may have felt by my first post? tsk tsk...