Trees removed at Seattle Airport

MommyLuv

Thu, Dec 14 2006, 8:01 am

shalhevet wrote:

MommyLuv wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

Quote:

Bogomilsky, who works with Chabad-Lubavitch, an Orthodox Jewish outreach
organization, said, "Like people from all cultures and religions, we're
thrilled the trees are going back up."

Is that what a rabbi is supposed to say? That he is thrilled that a symbol of avoda zara is going up? Why on earth does he have to say anything at all? And if he got himself into such a corner that he had to say this to be PC then I really wonder why he did what he did.

Come on, he had to say that. You all know that too! Give the guy some credit. It's all for the public eye. I'm sure he probably doesnt really care about the trees, like most of us who would rather Moshiach be here and only holiness everywhere and Chanukah menorahs taking the place of Xmas trees.

Given the situation, he probably had no choice.

Everyone has a choice. He didn't have to say anything. And to me it's an enormous chilul Hashem.

You are far from being in his shoes or understanding or judging why he said that.

And on quite a literal level, I am sure he IS thrilled to have the trees up, if only because I am sure this new development will reduce the number of hate letters stuffing his mailbox. Wink

TzenaRena

Thu, Dec 14 2006, 9:44 am

I happen to agree with Shalhevet, in that I am dissappointed in that he said that remark, imo it was a mistake. All the furor may have interfered with clear thinking, and I'm not judging him. He still made a Kiddush Hashem with his staunch efforts to put up the menorah.

But it would have been much better had he not said anything of that sort. Definitely a shailoh for a Rav, (not just a lawyer Exclamation

) but to give him the benefit of the doubt, perhaps he did consult with a Rav Confused

I just wonder...

brooklyn

Thu, Dec 14 2006, 10:13 am

shalhevet wrote:

MommyLuv wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

Quote:

Bogomilsky, who works with Chabad-Lubavitch, an Orthodox Jewish outreach
organization, said, "Like people from all cultures and religions, we're
thrilled the trees are going back up."

Everyone has a choice. He didn't have to say anything. And to me it's an enormous chilul Hashem.

Well like you said, TO YOU it is a chilul hashem. To the non jews they see a Jew who is happy that they are able to have their holiday symbols put back up. They now see someone who is not being the grinch who stole their x-mas, so technically in their eyes it is a kiddush hashem. It is amazing the contradictions that always pop up, on some topics people are always saying that we live in galus and that it is a non jewish world that we live in and we should not piss off the non jews, we have to be careful about retaliation.... On other topics some say the heck with what the non jews think we should do what we want. Make up your mind already. Most of you thought the Chanukah House was disgusting because it is copying the non jews and what will they think. All they did was put up Menorahs on their property, they didn't threaten to sue their neighbors to have them take down their nativity scenes. They did not make the news in a negative way like this Rabbi did. They actually made the papers in a positive way for the Jews. I don't think that we should shove our religion at others just like we don't want other religions shoved at us. Live and let live. Sorry for rambling on, just fed up already.

shalhevet

Thu, Dec 14 2006, 10:21 am

We've discussed this issue on some other threads. It is not true that kiddush Hashem means do what the non jews in that time and place think is good. By that line of reasoning it would have been a kiddush Hashem in Nazi Germany to kill Jews and collaborate with the Nazis.

A kiddush Hashem is showing non jews (or Jews) that you are doing G-d's will.

No-one said here he should have said anything against anyone's religion; just kept quiet.

brooklyn

Thu, Dec 14 2006, 10:46 am

I'll put this insimple terms they way it was taught to me as a child. Maybe it is correct, maybe it is not, but that is still the way I look at it.
non jews: Hey our trees were taken down because that Jew is threatening a lawsut. - Chilul Hashem.

non jews: Hey we got our trees back up and the Jew is happy for us, it really wasn't his fault after all, he is not bad like we thought. - kiddush Hashem.

non jews: (if Rabbi said nothing) Hey we got our trees back no thanks to that Jew, I'll bet he wishes they were still down. - Chilul Hashem.

I never said that we have to bend our will to suit the non jews, but how they percieve us how they react to what we do can make a kiddush hashem or a chilul hashem.

amother

Thu, Dec 14 2006, 12:28 pm

Here is an article that explains this situation REALLy well.

It just takes a few minutes to read:

Fight or Light?
Controversy and Irony at SeaTac Airport

By Yanki Tauber

Public menorah lighting in downtown Seattle, circa 1985
One thing I've come to realize is that many of us have an innate, enduring loyalty to our preconceptions. We'll stick with them through thick and thin, no matter what reality sends our way.

I first realized this some twenty years ago when a friend and I, as two young Chabad-Lubavitch rabbinical students, spent our summers canvassing the state of Montana looking for Jews. We'd drive from town to town--some of which only had one or two Jewish families--and try to do our bit to encourage Jewish identity and observance.

We were quite a curiosity, and were often featured in the local newspaper. The publicity proved useful in both drawing local Jews out of the woodwork and gaining us a welcome response when we called on people.

One thing irked me though about these newspaper stories. After spending an hour lecturing the reporter on Jewish identity and explaining about Shabbat, kosher, tefillin and mezuzah--what did s/he write about? About the "Two Hasidic Men Wearing Traditional Hasidic Black Hat and Long Black Coat" who've rolled into town.

The black hat part was true. Below the neck, however, we wore ordinary business suits. In all fairness to the reporters, these do tend toward the darker end of the color spectrum. Still, we weren't in town to promote traditional hasidic garb, and we'd have much preferred that the article focus on the more substantive parts of our message.

So one day we left our hats in the car. My partner wore a light grey suit to the interview, and I put on the most light-colored garment I owned--a light-tan plaid sports jacket.

Sure enough, the next day's paper ran a full-sized photograph of two hatless, light-jacketed young men posed in front of the newspaper building. One held a pair of tefillin, and the other a Shabbat candlestick. The caption under the photograph read: "Tauber, 21, and Begun, 22, two hasidic rabbis sporting the traditional black hat and long black coat, visit Montana on mission."

I was reminded again of how attached people can be to their preconceptions when seeing the news reports on the menorah controversy at Seattle-Tacoma International Airport.

The irony is that Rabbi Bogomilsky and his colleagues are squarely on the very opposite side of the debate... First the facts: Seattle Port Authority consultant Mitchell Stein, along with Rabbi Elazar Bogomilsky, a Seattle-based Chabad-Lubavitch rabbi, wanted to erect a Chanukah menorah at SeaTac Airport. The airport already had 14 large x-mas trees set up in various places throughout their terminals.

SeaTac is a major international gateway; why not share the menorah's message with the tens of thousands who pass through it? There's a public menorah in Red Square. At the Eiffel Tower. Inside the Brandenburg Gate. And in thousands of places throughout the United States and across the globe. Washington State's own governor is proudly hosting a menorah lighting ceremony in the capitol during Chanukah.

But the folks in charge at SeaTac didn't want a menorah. After weeks of stonewalling, bureaucratic double-speak and suddenly canceled meetings by Port brass, Rabbi Bogomilsky's lawyer warned of possible legal action. The airport's now infamous response was to.... remove the x-mas trees, claiming that they wouldn't be able to handle the onslaught of religiously diverse requests.

"Rabbi Forces Removal of x-mas Trees" screamed the headlines. For the first 24 hours after the story broke, the news outlets, reflecting statements being made by airport officials, actually reported that the rabbi was "offended" by the trees and had threatened to sue to have them removed. Eventually the stories themselves became more factually correct, but the original slant remained, and most viewers and readers were left with the impression that all this was part of what's lately being called the "War Against x-mas," spawning reams of hate mail to Jewish organizations and websites across the country.

Some of the news stories had an almost surreal quality to them: the rabbi would be quoted insisting that he has nothing against the trees, that he never in any way implied that he would sue to have the trees be removed, and that he is simply fighting for the right to put up a menorah; yet as he speaks, we see the news banner on the screen behind him: "Rabbi Threatens Lawsuit; x-mas Trees Removed." The reporter interviews the rabbi, asking his prepared question and then delivering his prepared sign-off, as if completely oblivious to what his interviewee has actually said.

It seems that there isn't much you can do to separate a person from his beloved preconceptions: apparently, some reporters and news editors already "knew" that the rabbi is against the trees, and once they knew that, nothing--not even their own reportage--was going to change the way they present the story.

Even now, when the trees are back up, the rabbi promised not to sue (at least not this year), and the airport has (sort of) intimated that they may respond positively to his request.... next year (maybe), the media continues to spin the "War Against x-mas" story and the hate mail continues to pour in.

The irony is that, for the last 25 years, there has been an ongoing debate within the Jewish community on the very issue of religious displays in public places during the winter holiday season--with Rabbi Bogomilsky and his colleagues squarely on the very opposite side of the debate than the side that's being attributed to him.

The sight of one menorah burning proudly through the night will do more for Jewish continuity than the removal of 1000 x-mas trees... There are 300 million people living in America, a large majority of whom are proud Christians; among them live about 5 million Jews. Come December, trees and other holiday paraphernalia blossom forth throughout the length and breadth of the land. Many Jews feel challenged by this phenomenon. "How can I raise my child to feel secure in and proud of his Jewishness," they wonder, "when he's confronted by these displays in every store window, hotel lobby and village square? How can I myself avoid feeling resentful, left out, discriminated against?"

Not long ago, the answer for many was: We'll fight the trees! We'll take them to court, we'll cite the Establishment Clause, and get all religious symbols removed from the public domain.

Chabad-Lubavitch took a different tack. Don't fight to remove the trees--put up menorahs! Don't direct your efforts to make America "less Christian"--work to celebrate America's freedom to encourage Jews in their Jewishness. Would not a single positive message be so much more effective than a thousand un-messages? Would not the sight of a single menorah burning proudly through the night do more for Jewish pride and Jewish continuity than the removal of a thousand trees?

Today, most of the Jewish community has been won over to this view. But it wasn't so long ago that Chabad-Lubavitch encountered vehement opposition for spearheading the "shower them with light" approach. I remember one particular year in the mid 1980's when I was involved in helping organize the activities surrounding the public menorah lightings during Chanukah in Seattle (yes, the very same Seattle). A national Jewish organization took the city to court to try and force them to revoke their permission for Chabad-Lubavitch to put up the menorah. They were actually quite apologetic to us: "Please understand, we have nothing against your menorah, but we're suing the city to make them take down the x-mas trees and crèches, so in all fairness, we need to fight the menorah too..."

So, irony of ironies, a Chabad-Lubavitch rabbi trying to put up a menorah is portrayed in hundreds of newspapers and television broadcasts from coast to coast as... the man who made SeaTac Airport remove the trees.

Shamefully, the airport is still obfuscating about why it is one of the only places in the United States to deny a menorah request. Hopefully in the short time left between now and Chanukah they will "see the light."

But if there's a lesson here for the rest of us, it may simply be: don't presume. Don't think that you already know what your fellow human being is all about, what he or she stands for, what s/he wants to achieve. If we'd listen to each other more, we might actually like what we hear.

Happy Chanukah!

amother

Thu, Dec 14 2006, 5:34 pm

some people are soooooooo square minded.
I think the shliach has the full right to sue the airport. he felt that his civil adn religious right were violated.

and for those women who think that it is better not to bring "negative attention , as they think the shliach are COWARDS!!!! stick up for your religion. stick up for th 6 million neshamos that were taked away just b/c they were yidden. stick up for the fact that people are jealous of us,thus causing anti-semitism in the world.

HELLO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! he did not demand it should be taken down. just like the trees give a warm ffeling to the non jewish passengers, why should a menorah not be there to greet the yidden. besides whatother religions and cultures have a holiay aroung this time of the year. us, the christians and african americans (I think, kwansaa, or something)

about the suing part I think he has every right. my sister is suing her town since they do not allow her to build a shul. in order to build a house of worship where she lives, you need 2 criterias: on at least 3acres, off a mian road. there are only 4 propoerties that have 3 acres and they are all bought, people live there so they bought 2 properties (worth about 2 million dollars) it only adds up to 2 1/2 acres and it is off the main road. she needs a permits, special permission sicne she is missing the other criteria and the town refuses to give it to them, without a reason. people are upset that they are suiung but thye feel theya re not being treated right, just like the shliach in seattle. if you do not see ANTI SEMITISM, open your eyes, if you think it is a chillul hashem that she is suing, I CAN NOT HELP YOU. Rolling Eyes

tzipp

Thu, Dec 14 2006, 5:53 pm

I tottaly agree amother- I think Jews need to be proud of themselves, and remember that it our job to be a "light unto the nations". Sure throwing things in peoples faces and being ungrateful is wrong- but this Rabbi was really not doing that. He was asking to display a menorah. (doing something like insisting that there were as many menoras or that everyone should light on are some examples of being to pushy and ungrateful).
I think that a lot of people are also forgetting that the special mitzvah of chanuka is specifically pirsumie nisa- we are supposed to "show off" this holiday!

Motek

Thu, Dec 14 2006, 7:41 pm

Quote:

There are lengthy teshuvos from Rav Ovadya Yosef shlita and Rav Binyomin Zilber Shlita and others, based on the Rivash, that the mitzvah of pairsumei nisa includes every possible form of public lighting.

According to many Rishonim this is the basis of the mitzvah of lighting in a shul. In fact they both hold that you make a brocha if you light in any public area not only a shul.

There is no question that many Yiddin will see a menorah placed in any international airport. Furthermore the Achronim are mediyik from Rashi in Shabbos that pirsumei nisa of Chanukah is even for non Jews.

In addition there is no doubt that when many not yet frum Jews see a menorah they are reminded it is Chanukah and are inspired to light their own at home. Very few non jews really mind to see a menorah in a public area. The ones who mind are Reform Jews and frum Jews who either don't understand the reasoning behind the Rebbe's campaign for public menorah lightings, or those who are sonei-Chabad (as is readily apparent from the comments made elsewhere on the Internet).

And I wonder whether in a case where you (who oppose the rabbi's handling of this situation) or a loved one were discriminated against at work because of your Sabbath observance, whether you would simply keep quiet and find another job or exercise your right to sue since the law of the land says you cannot be discriminated against for Sabbath observance.

Quote:

He is a US citizen who pays taxes to the US.
As such he is entitled to every law in the US.
US law says the menorah goes up, where there is a tree, if requested.
All he did was ask for his right as a US citizen to follow the law.

Reason it turned into this fiasco, is because he did not think (and neither did any of us) that the airport would go to such great lengths by taking down the trees to make sure no menorah goes up. Well, they did (1 case for every 3,000 Chabad puts up) and for now he looked bad. Most mainstream media are already turning the story around against the airport now, and sooner or later the rest will as well, as more details come out.

And here is the underlying issue, most non jews are furious that Yoshke is being taken out of the holiday season. Ever notice how when we were kids everyone would say merry yatzmach & now they all say happy holidays etc. Most non jews think that the Jews are behind this (since many frei yidden are afraid of xristianity and rightfully so, since their kids are intermarrying). Now, when this story broke, they all thought that this is the same Jewish group AJC, ADL, Federations etc who want to secularize the season and they were furious at the Jews. All the Rabbi had to do was get his point out, az ess geyt unz nisht un vegen dayn boim, all we want is a menorah up, as for your tree, leg ess un heng zach for all we care, and this is why the non jews have since calmed down.

p.s. the airport has apologized to the Jewish community already and all of the mainstream media are changing their stories, now blaming the airport.

chavamom

Fri, Dec 15 2006, 12:41 am

Motek wrote:

And I wonder whether in a case where you (who oppose the rabbi's handling of this situation) or a loved one were discriminated against at work because of your Sabbath observance, whether you would simply keep quiet and find another job or exercise your right to sue since the law of the land says you cannot be discriminated against for Sabbath observance.

OK, guess what. I had a job that I had to quit over exactly this (a hospital that had said I wouldn't have to work on shabbos and then reneged). Not only did I not sue, but when we looked into it, we found that it is not true that companies have to let you off for your sabbath. There are many conditions to this AND no one has to hire you if they know you are sabbath observant and then make arrangements. Yes, we spoke to a number of lawyers about the topic.

Even with all the above - it's a false comparison.

Crayon210

Fri, Dec 15 2006, 12:46 am

brooklyn wrote:

I'll put this insimple terms they way it was taught to me as a child. Maybe it is correct, maybe it is not, but that is still the way I look at it.

If you don't mind looking at things in the wrong way, then there's not much else to discuss.

Quote:

non jews: Hey our trees were taken down because that Jew is threatening a lawsut. - Chilul Hashem.

Nope.

Quote:

non jews: Hey we got our trees back up and the Jew is happy for us, it really wasn't his fault after all, he is not bad like we thought. - kiddush Hashem.

Nope.

Quote:

non jews: (if Rabbi said nothing) Hey we got our trees back no thanks to that Jew, I'll bet he wishes they were still down. - Chilul Hashem.

Nope.

Quote:

I never said that we have to bend our will to suit the non jews, but how they percieve us how they react to what we do can make a kiddush hashem or a chilul hashem.

Nope.

Motek

Sat, Dec 23 2006, 6:20 pm

Earlier in the week, officials at Seattle-Tacoma International Airport decided to remove x-mas trees rather than allow Rabbi Bogomilsky to put up a Menorah.

That Friday, Erev Chanuka, the LIGHTS WENT OUT:

Quote:

Storm causes state of emergency
By Jonathan Martin and Sara Jean Green

Seattle Times staff reporters

King County Executive Ron Sims issued an emergency proclamation this morning after supercharged winds of up to 70 miles an hour overnight knocked out power to about one million people in greater Seattle.

Utilities across the region worked feverishly to restore lights and heat, but warned that hundreds of thousands of homes in Seattle and its suburbs may remain dark into Saturday. Puget Sound Energy warned of delays of up to five days.

As of 8 p.m. Friday about 86,000 Seattle City Light customers remained without power. At the highest point Friday, nearly 175,000 customers were without electricity.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.c......html

Ribbie Danzinger

Sat, Dec 23 2006, 7:22 pm

Motek, I wonder if the non jews will make the same connection...

su7kids

Sat, Dec 23 2006, 9:23 pm

And then I heard that they won't put the nativity scene up at the Capitol in Washington State, but there IS a Menorah there. The reason for not putting up the nativity scene is that its too religious!

Wierd, huh?