When and how does it start?

amother

Cerulean

Tue, Nov 22 2016, 12:06 am

Curious what goes on in ultra-orthodox schools. I'm talking about standard New York area Bais Yaakov and yeshiva type schools.

I expect that part of a BY/yeshiva education from the start is an emphasis that Torah study is a supreme value. I know that by high school/post high school there is a strong leaning toward marrying a kollel learner. When do they draw the line connecting point A to point B?

DH is transitioning from kollel to work and he is worried that our kids will be/are being taught to disrespect the working class. Our 5-year-old has made some comments along the lines of "You should stop your job so you can learn Torah all day" or "learning Torah is more important than ______ (his profession, which happens to be an important health profession), you should be a rabbi instead."

I think this is the child drawing her own conclusions based on the idea that Torah is the most important thing, and it's up to time and parents to balance that out with the understanding that Torah is part of our lives at all times, while a profession is also a thing. I can't bring myself to believe that they would actually teach or lead five year olds to believe that learning full time is better than working (especially since most of the kids probably have working dads.) They probably learned in Parsha that Yaakov the good guy learned Torah all day (wait, that's next week...?) and idealistically came home wishing their family could do the same, with plenty of room for a reality check... right?

But it got me thinking - when and how DO they teach these ideals? If I'm more of a "Torah im derech eretz" type am I going to need to compete with my kid's Bais Yaakov in elementary school? When and how do they get from "nah, they can't be actually giving this message to 5-year-olds" to "yeah the message for young adults is to aim for kollel." And is it true that the views in a typical in-town Bais Yaakov are that extreme?

I grew up with it myself and yet I'm not sure how it worked. But also DH is insistent that things are different nowadays and I'm blind if I think my kids are getting the type of education I grew up with, even at 5 years old.

What IS going on in the schools?

And by extension, if you want the Jewish education level of the frum schools but have a more nuanced view on Torah im derech eretz, what do you do? Do you send your kids to the frum schools, and if so how do you deal with that difference?

amother

Cerulean

Tue, Nov 22 2016, 12:24 am

amother wrote:

Your husband is right. Things have gotten more extreme. There's less respect now for working men. Don't worry, though, if you get rich from your job, the schools will love you.

You start off talking about standard right wing schools, but at the end of your post, you use frum to mean Bais Yaakov/ yeshivish. Apparently other streams aren't frum to you. Perhaps you got a little dose of brainwashing yourself.

Feeling harsh tonight?
My workplace and community include many MO people and I have never heard them self-describe as "frum." Observant, orthodox, religious - but they all seem to reserve "frum" for the Bais Yaakov/yeshiva crowd. You want to split hairs on the terminology, fine, tell me what the "right" words are and I'll edit. But frankly this type of labeling and categorizing is a huge turn-off.

amother

Goldenrod

Tue, Nov 22 2016, 12:45 am

amother wrote:

Ok, sorry. Where I'm from, the word "frum" just means religious, and mo use it to describe themselves as well. So it came across as judgmental, suggesting that shomrei Torah umitzvos aren't religious If they are not like you. Since you say that's not what you meant, my apologies.

Anyway, my first point stands. The sense that working men are inferior is definitely stronger than it was even ten years ago. Maybe it's the Israeli influence, maybe it's the wagon circling of a community that feels itself under siege, I don't know. There are now two full generations that have grown up on the kollel model, so that it's totally understandable for young children to think that only Zeidies and non-Jews work.

amother

Cerulean

Tue, Nov 22 2016, 1:02 am

behappy2 wrote:

There are definitely schools that are more into it or less into it. You can find out before you enroll your kids. I agree that the hashkofo does not hold water for everyone and it is taught in a very exaggerated way. That being said, expect that any school your kid is in will have a few teachers that will tell your kids things that are not in line with your hashkofo. Have a plan in advance with how you will deal with it.

My question is that for schools that are into it (let's say, just for theoretical discussion purposes, that they're "moderately" into it) - when and how are they teaching it? What are they telling the kids and at what age? Does my plan need to include deprogramming 5-year-olds?

amother

Turquoise

Tue, Nov 22 2016, 1:24 am

Sometimes I'll hear dd age 4 saying things like
Mommys don't have hair, they have a sheitel!
Mommys don't drive/go to work! (I don't drive but I do work and she said this not realizing what I do is called "work" Wink

)
I think at this age it really doesn't mean anything and I doubt she's being taught things like fathers only learning, but it's simple enough to say, actually, mommies have hair, its just covered, mommies do drive, and point out that "chana's mommy drives."
It can work the same way to point out that fathers go to work too. And when they get a bit older they will understand on their own the way it really works. Smile

amother

Cerulean

Tue, Nov 22 2016, 1:47 am

Makes me wonder if my kids' school fosters normal preschool/early elementary conversations like "What do your parents do?" that could more clearly establish the fact that there are many valid occupations. Granted in the kind of crowd this school attracts there's bound to be a strong representation of kollel/rabbis, educators, and accountants, but at least I wouldn't have to worry about being the only voice they hear saying that it is normal for fathers to work. Which it is - I am absolutely sure that the majority of fathers of the students work.

Amother above me, I also had that experience at 4 years old. But now it's "Daddy, you should be a rabbi instead of an accountant/programmer/nurse" I still think that's just her projection from the general idea that learning Torah is good, but because I see the extremism by the young adult years I'm nervous if this is how it all starts. Actually DH is the one making me nervous because he is taking it very personally and keeps saying we need to get the kids out of the "brainwashing" school (it's a regular Bais Yaakov with quite a mixed crowd, and I'm not comfortable with the local alternatives) and I'm just not sure what's really going on.

sped

Tue, Nov 22 2016, 3:09 am

I live in Israel and send to cheder, butthis is our exoerience. DS (6) is very into how important it is to learn as much as possible. He will say things like - "Chaval to waste time now. Better to learn Torah". (And he does.)
DH is an Israeli, chareidi avreich, but he makes sure to work into conversation that it is a mitzvah to learn Torah as much as one can. Some people are lucky and can learn all day; others have a job and can learn before/after work/ on Shabbos.

Iymnok

Tue, Nov 22 2016, 3:23 am

sped wrote:

Exactly.
A message of learning Torah is the most important. (That is why Tatti learns Daf yomi before work and stays after maariv to learn more.)

Chayalle

Tue, Nov 22 2016, 9:37 am

I'm a parent and a Kollel wife, but I did not grow up in a Kollel family. I expect my kids to make choices that work for them, just as I made choices that work for me. As such, I think it's important to have open communication with your kids. There are always going to be teachers that say things that may be somewhat different than your Hashkafa, so talk to them. At least you are not fighting the messages some of our grandparents had to deal with when their kids went to non-Jewish schools.

My DD recently came home and told me of a teacher that said something to the effect that everyone should marry someone who learns in Kollel forever, since anyway Hashem takes care of all your needs then, yada yada yada. We had an open discussion about different people being on different levels of emunah, and about different people being able to live on different standards, and that not everyone's path to Avodas Hashem is the same. And that yes, this teacher is coming from a certain perspective, and no, it's not necessarily for everyone, even if she says that it is. And that at 18, DD is old enough to see and understand these things.

This is not a new conversation, BTW....there was one teacher in DD's high school that was pretty radical about some of the things she said - and not just about Kollel - just about everything.....DD used to get super riled up about some of her statements, so she'd come home and we'd talk, and filter whatever she said, some of which was pretty extreme.....

BTW, when I decided to marry a learning boy, I told my father that he was my role model for someone who is machshiv Torah (he still is, and DH concurs). My father used to get up at 5:30 a.m. for Daf Yomi. After a full day of work, he learned with each of my brothers, and then was off to his nightly shiur. He had a steady Sunday Chavrusah for like 40 years. I never, ever saw him slack off or be "too tired" to learn Torah. When my brothers got older and married, my father took on more learning, and when he retired, he was able to return to it on a more or less full time basis, because he had never left it, really.

behappy2

Tue, Nov 22 2016, 10:26 am

amother wrote:

It depends which teachers your kids lands up with but there are so many places to drill it in. Simchas torah,shavuos, story of rabbi akiva, the avos etc..,just keep an open dialogue and talk to them about your own values. If most of the parent body work it is less concerning.it also depends on their personality. My 6 year old is in a very right wing yeshiva but he still wants to be an astronaut or a pirate and is very proud that his father is very smart even though he is not in kollel. For more temimusdik kids you should have more running dialogue if it bothers you or enjoy their sweet naiveté.

debsey

Tue, Nov 22 2016, 10:46 am

It's easy to co-opt the school's agenda and point to your husband's Kovea Itim as being what the school is talking about.

Yes, tatties learn Torah. Our Tatty never misses his Daf Yomi shiur....never misses a minyan....always goes on shabbos afternoon to hear the rav speak...etc.

The message that Torah is the main thing, and that ALL Tatties learn as much Torah as they can doesn't necessarily mean that only Tatties in kollel are doing the right thing.

My father worked, but you always got the sense that it was what he did till he could be in front of his Gemarah again. In fact, when I was little, a teacher asked the kids in our class what our Tatties do and I said "My Tatty learns Torah." The teacher was upset because she knew my father worked and she thought I was lying. But I innocently told her - whenever I see my Tatty, he is learning Torah. I honestly had NO idea that he had an actual job. My father had a pretty important job, but it wasn't something he dwelt on or talked about, so I didn't realize it existed when I was four.

I came home all confused and asked my father and he said that sometimes Tatty has to pause learning Torah and do this thing called earning a living, but I'm right - what Tatty actually does is learn Torah. Everything else is just kind of secondary.

debsey

Tue, Nov 22 2016, 1:42 pm

Chayalle wrote:

I think that is so sad. A teacher should know better than that, and a four year old who says her Totty learns Torah demonstrates exactly what is important in the home she is growing up in.

I agree. I think the teacher thought I was copying the girls who went before me. In those days, almost no one had a Tatty who learned, but my closest friends were the daughter of a shul rav and the daughter of a posek. They both said "My Tatty learns Torah" so I think she thought I was just copying. (The way, when you ask a class of girls what's their favorite supper, everyone repeats the supper the first girl said)

seeker

Tue, Nov 22 2016, 4:17 pm

debsey wrote:

I love this story. Love.