NYU Hospital Bars Satmar Bikur Cholim,

imanewmom2010

Mon, May 14 2018, 9:31 pm

No one would EVER decide to put a DNR on a patient's chart that was not done with consent from the patient himself (if able to make decisions), his health care proxy or next of kin. Im a nurse and Ive worked in multiple hospitals and rotated in school through many nyc hospitals and can tell you that saying that is rediculous. Even the worse hospitals would never entertain that never mind nyu which is a good hospital. People dont realize but at certain times/situations a rav will allow a DNR.

As far as this bikur cholim situation, we can all just speculate but It seems to me that pateints conplained (maybe non frum patients) and that the hospital is just acting on those complaints. From the articles it seems like they were getting into discussions with patient about their treatment plan, which should never happen, but this is all speculation.

Many hospitals are removing names from floor cards to help with privacy concerns but not all in nyc are there yet. And even in my facitily only certain floors have done away with it so people can walk by and see if the name sounds jewish to them.

southernbubby

Mon, May 14 2018, 10:04 pm

The daily news said this:

The group's lawyer speculated that hospital management was upset volunteers were counseling Jewish patients to seek costly treatment based on religious beliefs. Jewish law generally recommends all medical steps must be taken — like intubating a patient — to prolong life.

amother

Chartreuse

Mon, May 14 2018, 11:13 pm

There has to be a way to allow or bar. Privacy is a big problem for my case. Advance directive is a must for everyone 18 and up. Go to Chaim Aruchim website. The new laws coach and harrass doctors to shorten lives of sick people to avoid costs. Dr (tsadik) Yashar Hirshaut saw this coming about 10 years ago and helped create or created Chaim Aruchim. They send people with eating problems home starving to die. No IV order, etc. Just follow up with your doc... and deteriorate meanwhile....I know a lot. Me and spouse are in the medical field.

amother

Chartreuse

Mon, May 14 2018, 11:25 pm

egam wrote:

The privacy system does exist in many hospitals. In the hospital where I work, a patient can opt to not be shown on the hospital census and is given a password to give to visitors that are allowed to come. Visitors have to give this password at the front security, otherwise they won’t be allowed to enter. Our security will not even confirm that the patient in the hospital without password. The patient’s name will also not appear on a list of patients given by pastoral care to volunteers that distribute Shabbos packages or visit Jewish patients on Shabbos. And all our volunteers are official, cleared by the hospital.

Excelent system, Egam. I don't want these people (they are all from my neighborhood) know my family member is here. And for a reason. And sorry guys, hard to believe that they keep HIPAA laws.

amother

Apricot

Tue, May 15 2018, 8:02 am

amother wrote:

If you were in the medical field, you would know IV is not a valid form of nutrition. There are many forms of supplemental nutrition, but IV is not one of them.

southernbubby

Tue, May 15 2018, 8:34 am

amother wrote:

If you were in the medical field, you would know IV is not a valid form of nutrition. There are many forms of supplemental nutrition, but IV is not one of them.

An IV can provide hydration. TPN can provide nutrition if the alimentary tract cannot absorb nutrition through an NG or gastric tube. None of these things should be withheld.

amother

Wine

Tue, May 15 2018, 9:35 am

amother wrote:

If you were in the medical field, you would know IV is not a valid form of nutrition. There are many forms of supplemental nutrition, but IV is not one of them.

Nutrition support specialist here - you are mistaken. There are various ways to nourish a person, including IV nutrition as a supplement or to meet a person's total nutrition needs. The treatment may or may not be appropriate at end of life.

To address this thread as a whole: Whether or not to provide this or any other kind of medical treatment is between a patient and doctor. If the patient chooses to consult with a rabbi or other spiritual leader for guidance, that's fine. Orders, including DNR/DNI, cannot just be put on someone's chart. They are actually ordered by the physician with the patient's consent. There's a process.

I'm not familiar with the hospital in question nor have I interacted with the Satmar Bikur Cholim. Of course, patients can speak with and gain information from whomever they choose. However, if the Bikur Cholim volunteers are somehow getting involved in medical decisions or violating privacy guidelines, that would be inappropriate. It is understandable that volunteers no longer are permitted to go from room to room. Patient privacy is taken much more seriously now than in the past.

farm

Tue, May 15 2018, 11:20 am

amother wrote:

Why do people need bikur cholim to bring food? There are kosher meals available at the hospital.

When I was in a NYC hospital with a child having surgery over yom tov, we got exactly 1 meal during the entire 72+ hour hospitalization. And it was the regular 'treif' meal even though we specified kosher on admission! Some of it was because kid was npo for the surgery on and off as it was postponed a couple of times, but most of it was poor organization and communication by the medical and nursing staff. If not for the bikur cholim room, we would not have eaten until DH came with yom tov leftovers after havdala! I can only imagine how a debilitated patient who may not have someone staying with them 24/7 may desperately need a volunteer bringing them kosher food once a day at the least!

southernbubby

Tue, May 15 2018, 11:30 am

farm wrote:

They are allowing volunteers to come if the patient invites them to come. If you want them, call and arrange for them to come. They just can't walk into units and look for Jewish patients. When you think about it, you can lock the door to your hotel room but anyone can walk into a hospital room, even someone who wants to harm someone.

Then there is the fact that many people don't view being hospitalized as public knowledge anymore. It used to be that going to a hospital was something that people wanted everyone to know about and people sent 'get well soon' cards, flowers, and visited the sick but today people often want to hide medical conditions and don't necessarily want visitors.

Here in Detroit, only one hospital that I have visited has metal detectors and security checking all bags by the front door of the hospital. Some of them have security in the ER but anyone can walk into those hospital wards from the front entrances. Imagine what a security nightmare that actually is.

SixOfWands

Tue, May 15 2018, 11:39 am

amother wrote:

The "new laws" do no such thing. The insurance companies will only pay for a certain number of days in the hospital, or for certain types of care. After that, you can private pay, or you can leave.

farm

Tue, May 15 2018, 11:43 am

In my specific case, there was no one to call on yom tov! I had no idea how bad the food situation would be and packed a bag of snacks and nosh to have in the room. But when it was apparent that the hospital had nothing to offer us, BH I was able to find the bikur cholim room and get a small grape juice, 2 challah rolls, and an instant soup so I could make kiddish and wash and eat a makeshift seuda. Looking back, I can't believe how poorly dh and I packed for the hospitalization (we are so not the type to ask/rely on the kindness and generosity of others when we are BH more than capable of taking care of ourselves), but I guess it was the shock and stress of the situation that clouded our ability to be organized and rational. Again, my kid had me to make the trip back and forth when she requested something (the mini grape juices and the pekalach someone SO kindly thought to bring before yom tov since we missed the 'real' simchas Torah pekalach in shul are what she remembers today) but had it been an adult over yom tov with no way to reach out to anyone, the volunteer who came by at least once a day to say hi would have been the only lifeline for 48 hours!

amother

Cobalt

Tue, May 15 2018, 11:49 am

SixOfWands wrote:

The "new laws" do no such thing. The insurance companies will only pay for a certain number of days in the hospital, or for certain types of care. After that, you can private pay, or you can leave.

Do you have any skin in this? As a doctor consulting on hospitalized patients a daily basis, my experience is that there is considerable pressure placed on patients and their families for comfort care only and not extended further efforts toward prolonging life. And yes, when the family says we want nothing spared to save this life, while that will be respected in the letter of the law, behind their backs there is tremendous attitude of condensation and how horrible-mean-stupid and in denial is this family. And consultants can take their sweet time coming to see the patient and the primary can take his/her sweet time ordering tests and interventions.

southernbubby

Tue, May 15 2018, 12:16 pm

farm wrote:

Do the volunteers walk to Manhattan on YomTov? If the hospital is in walking distance, then I am sure that volunteers go in on Yomtov.

southernbubby

Tue, May 15 2018, 12:22 pm

amother wrote:

Very true! A woman that I was visiting as a volunteer was having trouble breathing and needed to be suctioned. I went to the desk to tell the nurse and was told that the patient would have to wait for awhile. Another nurse, seeing that I probably looked horrified, told me that she would tend to it immediately and gave a dirty look to the first nurse. They certainly didn't want a reputation for allowing someone to choke to death when all they had to do was suction out the excessive mucus.

amother

Lime

Tue, May 15 2018, 12:23 pm

southernbubby wrote:

All of the DMC hospitals except Huron Valley have metal detectors. Having worked there, I can tell you that this is because people actually bring weapons in. And someone once threw a grenade past the metal detector at receiving. Henry Ford and Oakwood do as well. And every hospital has security by the ER. Even the suburban ones.

southernbubby

Tue, May 15 2018, 12:45 pm

amother wrote:

I only saw one at Sinai-Grace front entrance. Beaumont and Providence front entrance has no security, only in the ER. Never saw one at the front of Henry Ford Wyandotte either.