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Forum
-> Interesting Discussions
mali
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Wed, Nov 07 2007, 4:20 pm
Tammy, the very simple answer to that is that the term "Torah Mi'Sinai" means from Hashem, as explained earlier. The Artscroll translation here is literal.
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TammyTammy
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Wed, Nov 07 2007, 4:28 pm
mali wrote: | Tammy, the very simple answer to that is that the term "Torah Mi'Sinai" means from Hashem, as explained earlier. The Artscroll translation here is literal. |
Fair enough. I'll accept that "MiSinai" is simply an idiomatic form of "from HaShem." But I want to see if that's what Sue actually says.
Tammy
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Sue DaNym
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Wed, Nov 07 2007, 7:43 pm
for the last 3000 plus years, weve been taught that moshe got the torah on sinai. the gemara says that he got the aseres hadibros, torah, navi, kesuvim, mishna and gemara -- obviously it means that he got the entire thing. so yes, moshe got a copy of the chumash navi and all the rest on har sinai.
as for yur questions, I find them highly inappopriate for a board for frum women who are maaminim. u boast that you dont beleive in torah misinai and yur questions smack of kfirah.
if u dont believe in torah misinai then you violate one of the rambams ikkarim which are the bedrocks of our faith. if u dont believe in torah misinai as u yurself openly admited then I dont have to answer yur stupid questions.
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Ruchel
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Thu, Nov 08 2007, 10:37 am
Sue... your point would be more effective if you refrained from insulting people. It's really annoying and childish.
That said, even among those who believe Moshe received everything, many think some was given and transmitted orally until it was recorded in Talmud times... some even learn he received the letters but in no order.
Last thing, "frum women" are not maaminim, JEWS are (even if some don't know it).
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mali
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Mon, Nov 19 2007, 2:27 pm
Sue, do you have an answer now?
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Apple pie
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Mon, Nov 19 2007, 2:39 pm
It is really funny to read it now...
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Motek
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Mon, Nov 19 2007, 2:43 pm
If you look up the Ramban's introduction to Bereishis, you'll see that he says:
The entire Torah consists of G-d's names ... and that the Torah was written as black fire on white fire. The letters were written continuously, with no spaces, and it could be read as G-d's names or as we read it, about Torah and mitzvos. It was given to Moshe Rabeinu in the form of reading the mitzvos and transmitted to him orally as G-d's names.
nothing here about Arvos Moav and the story sequence
Torah preceded Creation. It's not a history book that has to have a proper chronology.
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shalhevet
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Mon, Nov 19 2007, 2:46 pm
mali, how did you get involved in that schizophrenic discussion??
Unbelievable to read it with hindsight.
Maybe at least we can take the message that when there are things Hashem does that it is difficult for us to understand (tzaddik vera lo, rasha vetov lo) that maybe we are just missing one important part of the puzzle... With hindsight it would all be so different...
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Lechatchila Ariber
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Mon, Nov 19 2007, 3:20 pm
she got sloppy in many places.
as I wrote before many lubavitchers were already suspecting earlier that she didn't sound very lubavitch. A few were shocked to see her in the lub forum.
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gryp
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Mon, Nov 19 2007, 3:35 pm
I think it's just plain horrible.
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mimivan
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Mon, Nov 19 2007, 3:37 pm
Is this the end of closed forums?
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gryp
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Mon, Nov 19 2007, 3:42 pm
I think it's the end of anyone trusting anyone else.
There will always be that thought in the back of our minds... what if?
OH
Remember that amother who accused mali, Motek, Sue, etc, of being the same poster?
Was that Tammy/Sue as amother???
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peach
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Mon, Nov 19 2007, 3:43 pm
This really is humorous to read in hindsight....
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gryp
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Mon, Nov 19 2007, 3:54 pm
The post I'm remembering is in Tammy's own threads, not a random post on the forum.
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cindy324
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Mon, Nov 19 2007, 4:04 pm
Quote: | Conspiracy theories will abound. I used a kugel recipe from here and it turned out terrible. Now that I think about it, the amother who offered it might have been Tammy, trying to tamper with my kugel. |
We've officially entered the twilight zone...
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mali
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Mon, Nov 19 2007, 4:05 pm
Clarissa wrote: | Conspiracy theories will abound. I used a kugel recipe from here and it turned out terrible. Now that I think about it, the amother who offered it might have been Tammy, trying to tamper with my kugel. | LOL, sorry about your kugel!
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mimivan
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Mon, Nov 19 2007, 4:09 pm
Well, one good thing to come out of this is I remember a particularly nasty anon poster who sounded a lot like Sue (and disappeared when Sue appeared)...I used to get so upset reading her horrible posts.
Now they are both gone...b'h...(at least I hope so...if the anon was actually sue)
Tammy was sometimes tolerable. But what's with the repetition, Tammy Tammy..
And if it was a guy, Maybe Tammy Tammy was Sammy Sammy...
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mali
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Mon, Nov 19 2007, 4:10 pm
Motek wrote: | If you look up the Ramban's introduction to Bereishis, you'll see that he says:
The entire Torah consists of G-d's names ... and that the Torah was written as black fire on white fire. The letters were written continuously, with no spaces, and it could be read as G-d's names or as we read it, about Torah and mitzvos. It was given to Moshe Rabeinu in the form of reading the mitzvos and transmitted to him orally as G-d's names.
nothing here about Arvos Moav and the story sequence
Torah preceded Creation. It's not a history book that has to have a proper chronology. | Motek, of course the Torah preceded the world. Nobody doubts that. הסתכל באורייתא וברא עלמא isn't a Lubavitch concept. I believe MO learn that too.
We were discussing if Torah Sheb'ksav was given at Matan Torah in its entirety, and the answer is no. Torah Sheb'ksav was completed on the 7th of Adar, 2488, according to Rashi in V'zos Habracha. Tammy was right about it being impossible that the story of the Meraglim, for example, was given at Sinai. The part of the written Torah that was given during the time of Matan Torah is "Sefer Habris", as I've written earlier in this thread.
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