Defining Modern Orthodox (in haskafa, not practice)

shalhevet

Wed, Nov 28 2007, 2:26 pm

GR wrote:

There have been enough instances about the Rebbe reading a Chossid's mind, or knowing what the Chossid is doing even when far away, that I believe the Rebbe does certainly have an idea about what I'm doing when and where. If it's been proven to me personally once, it's been proven a hundred times.
I'm not going to deny it just to "sound good and normal" to others on the forum. The Rebbe has taken care of me with his brochos throughout my life, through the good and bad, big and small.

Could you explain the difference as to how you see Hashem influencing your life/ knowing what you do/ think and how you see the Rebbe doing the same?

sarahd

Wed, Nov 28 2007, 2:38 pm

GR wrote:

Quote:

I asked my husband about this and he says it's absolute nonsense. Chassidim don't hold that their rebbe IS Moshiach and they don't hold that their rebbe is a navi.

Hold on.
It used to be that certain Chassidim would hold of their Rebbe as Moshiach. That is not how it is today, and I know that, anyone does. I did not mean to imply that that is how it is today.
About a Navi- I never wrote that, you added that in.

I was just quoting my husband. He said that without prompting from me. As for implying that one's rebbe is Moshiach, I got the impression that you were referring to chassidim today too. Sorry if I caught the wrong impression.

gryp

Wed, Nov 28 2007, 3:02 pm

Quote:

Could you explain the difference as to how you see Hashem influencing your life/ knowing what you do/ think and how you see the Rebbe doing the same

I don't see the point of comparing Hashem and a human being. Hashem is bli gvul.

Quote:

How come you don't attribute those berochos in your life to Hakadosh Baruch Hu?

I just wanted to point out something that caught my eye. We both used the word "brachos" in different ways. The Rebbe has given me brachos that things should go well, and Hashem has sent the brachos down from Shamayim.

As I wrote a few weeks ago in a different post, when a Rebbe gives someone a bracha and it comes true, it's because the potential for it to happen was in Shamayim but there was something blocking it from coming down. The Rebbe's bracha removes that obstacle.

A bracha is compared to rain (Gishmei Bracha). Just as a vessel is needed to collect rain that falls, so too in order to receive the bracha we take upon ourselves a new hachlata (good decision), and by doing so we make ourselves into a vessel to "collect" the bracha.

chavamom

Wed, Nov 28 2007, 3:54 pm

sarahd wrote:

I have had people tell me that "other groups" of chassidim hold that their rebbe is moshiach in this day and age. No one from those groups, but people saying that Chabad isn't different from the norm. One told me she was by a tisch in Y-m and a girl told her that her rebbe is moshiach. I'd be really interested to know what groups these are b/c I had never heard of such a thing.

amother

Wed, Nov 28 2007, 4:07 pm

Far be it for me to expound on Chassidic thought, but I heard that it was/is customary for Chassidim to believe that their Rebbe COULD BE Mashiach. Most often, if a Rebbe passes, the Chassidim move on, and believe/hope that perhaps it will be the new Rebbe. The current situation in Chabad is unique in that the belief in the Rebbe's being Mashiach has outlived him.

chavamom

Wed, Nov 28 2007, 4:51 pm

I have much less of a problem with "could be" than "is".

Atali

Thu, Nov 29 2007, 2:46 am

Quote:

PostPosted: Today at 1:25 am Post subject: Re: re: Defining Modern Orthodox (in haskafa, not practice)

sarahd wrote:
GR wrote:

It is certainly a Chassidishe concept- all Chassidim, not just Chabad- that the Rebbe can read their thoughts, know what they're doing, is Moshiach. The other types of Chassidim can speak for themselves as to what they do nowadays, I have no personal connections to that world, but Chassidishe stories from all types of Chassidim are full of these values of what a Rebbe is.

I asked my husband about this and he says it's absolute nonsense. Chassidim don't hold that their rebbe IS Moshiach and they don't hold that their rebbe is a navi. What is true is that a rebbe who is on a high madreiga and has learned the chochmo of reading kvittlach (which is taught bemesora from rebbe to rebbe and can't be figured out alone) can tell from a person's kvittel where they're holding beruchniyus (I.e. if they're a maamin, if they're following the right derech, if they've done certain aveiros, etc.) In addition, many rebbes know chochmas hapartzuf and can tell certain things about a person from looking at his face. But being able to read a chossid's mind, especially when the chossid is elsewhere, or know what they're doing - no. (Except that sometimes in specific instances Hashem gives the rebbe ruach hakodesh if he needs to know something about a chossid in order to help/save him. But no rebbe has the ability to stam know everything, always, about someone.)

As I said before, I have noticed a trend of Lub posters (and in rl) deciding that all chassidim do the same questionable things they do, to make it seem legitimate, and anyone questioning them just being anti-Chassidic. For example, when we had a discussion on sleeping in the sukka I got told that chassidim don't. Which is total nonsense, as I live near chassidim from a number of different chassidus and they all sleep in the sukka.

And I would add another thing, sarahd. Many Rebbes (and some Litvish gedolim) know how to understand a person's character from his/her name and date of birth, which is from kabbolo.

Umm, Shalhevet, I have a chassidishe friend (Spinka) and she personally told me that it is not her minhag to sleep in the sukkah and she herself said many other chossidim hold the same way. Just because you know some chossidim who have the minhag to do so, doesn't mean that others don't.

BTW about Satmar and NK, what I meant to say is that there were somepeeople who tooklegitimate satmar beliefs about zionism and brought themto the extreme and became NK.

Atali

Thu, Nov 29 2007, 4:02 am

Also, Shalhevet said something before which no one responded to,so I will. She was concerned about the term "Elokist" being written with a "k".

It is Lubavitch minhag to say "Elokim acherim" when referring to avodah zara (like in the aseres hadibros) for the following reason:

There is a question as to the term "Elokim" is used at all by the chumash when referring to avodah zara, as there is only one Hashem and avodah zara doesn't chas v'shalom have any legitimacy whatsoever.

The question is answered in chasidus (I think it's in Tanya) with another question; Since nothing can exist unless Hashem allows it to exist by giving it chayus, how can avodah zara exist at all? The answer is that since it needs to exist (to give us bechira chofshis), Hashem does give it chayus, but only in the way of "achorayim" of kedusha (meaning very reluctantly and with distain).

Therefore the meaning of the term "Elokim Acherim" is that these entities get there chayus from the "achorayim" of Elokim (sheim kadosh), hence we are makpid to say Elokim in this context.

Of course, I don't know who invented this term "Elokist" anyway. I don't like it and have never actually heard any one say it. I think that "achorayimist" would be much more fitting.

gryp

Thu, Nov 29 2007, 9:25 am

Quote:

It is Lubavitch minhag to say "Elokim acherim" when referring to avodah zara

I didn't want to get into it so I skipped over the question.
We always say "Elokim" or "Elokei" even when referring to avodah zara. When I was in elementary and there are a few times in Chumash when this word is used referring to Avodah Zara, we were taught to say it with a "kuf."
And then I got to fifth grade where I had an absolutely wonderful but not Lubavitch teacher and she told us to switch it to a "Hey," and I just couldn't. It almost turned into a big deal, but my father called her up that night and told her how I felt about it, and from then on we said it with a "Kuf" if we wanted to when reading psukim for the class, and she didn't try to correct us.

Quote:

I think that "achorayimist" would be much more fitting.

LOL.
(Except that it's not just Avodah Zara that receives Chayus Bchinas Achorayim!)

HindaRochel

Thu, Nov 29 2007, 9:48 am

GR wrote:

.

I'm not going to deny it just to "sound good and normal" to others on the forum. The Rebbe has taken care of me with his brochos throughout my life, through the good and bad, big and small. To deny it just to lessen the uneasiness in other poster's stomachs when they read my words, would not only be a chutzpah to the Rebbe, but it would be dishonest to myself.

I don't see why it is chutzpadik to see the Rebbe as a human being who has used his intelligence to benefit mankind, especially the Jewish people. I see no reason to endow any human being with superhuman powers.

I do not think a Rebbe can read a person's mind from miles away. I do think many a great Rav has learned, naturally, how to read a person's face in terms of determining how they are feeling, if they are being honest with their feelings or questions etc. etc. Many "mindreaders" are able to achieve this. That doesn't take away from their greatness.

That the Rebbe employed his abilities for good and not for his own gain, that is to his credit. That he cares so much about each and every Jew that even one coming to him in a chutzpadikah manner could receive his love (though not necessarily his condonation) is a credit to him.

No Rav needs to evidence super-human or miraculous powers to be worthy of our respect and awe. I do need respect Moshe Rabbeinu because he turned water to blood, but because he was worthy to be the vessel to preform this miracle.

creativemommyto3

Thu, Nov 29 2007, 10:25 am

chavamom

Thu, Nov 29 2007, 10:41 am

One of my elderly neighbors was involved in Young Israel here when it was the "break-away" minyan from one of the older synagogues. His wife was telling me at the time you had this older, Yiddish speaking generation and a younger American-born generation, most in public schools and there was a total disconnect. Her parents shul had a co-ed dance (like a public high-school dance, not some NCSY, separate Jewish dancing type thing) for the American generation. Her parents wouldn't let her go. Well, most of those synagogues either died out with the kids joining Conservative and Reform synagogues or they BECAME conservative and reform synagogues. Young Israel is still around, is thriving and saved a lot of families, keeping them loyal to yiddishkeit. You have to be really careful b/c that generation made tremendous sacrifices in an era when the situation was so completely different and now they feel a younger generation is telling them "you're not quite frum".

gryp

Thu, Nov 29 2007, 11:03 am

Quote:

I'm trying to figure out how to explain this coherently, so bear with me.

I did not refer to intelligence or superhuman powers.

A Tzaddik has connections to "Above" more than a regular person does, because his Neshama is on a higher level or from a higher Source. There are many stories of Tzaddikim whose Neshamos have "travelled" or have been given access to the higher worlds, while their bodies remained down here. Obviously it's not that their Neshama leaves their bodies, because that would result in a human being's death, but we know that there are 5 levels of our Neshama, 3 (Nefesh, Ruach, Neshama) which are inside of us, and 2 (Chaya, Yechida) which remain Up Above.

A famous story of a Tzaddik whose Neshama travelled through the different gates of Shamayim, is the story of the Baal Shem Tov- On Rosh Hashana, he met with the Neshama of Moshiach, and he asked Moshiach: "When are you coming?" to which Moshiach replied: "When your wellsprings are spread forth to the outside."

In Chassidus we learn, that when we daven, it's not just about saying words and concentrating and asking Hashem for our needs. According to the level of our concentration in our prayers, our Neshama actually has the potential to ascend through the different levels of Heaven. This is why we learn Chassidus before davening, because it helps us with proper concentration. Also, each part of davening corresponds to the different worlds, Shmoneh Esrei corresponding to the highest world of Atzilus. To which after Shmoneh Esrei we conclude our davening and begin our worldly tasks that we are responsible for in our daily lives, whether it be learning, working, etc., and we are "Mamshich" (draw down?) the high levels that we reached during davening into our regular daily lives, which brings the entire day is onto a different plane of spirituality.

Obviously, for a Tzaddik it is easy for his Neshama to ascend through the different worlds Above, and even through the highest levels, and the Tzaddik is able to "accomplish things" in Shamayim that a regular person can not. For example, the famous stories we know of a Tzaddik davening, and an evil decree being overturned as a result. Or as we know with the story of Purim (and others), that even people on a "regular" spiritual level can "accomplish things" in Heaven by their prayer and fasting.

Which is why, when I want a certain thing that obviously only Hashem can give me because Hashem is the Master of the world, and is constantly creating and recreating the world at every second that passes- and I know that I don't have enough merits on my own to ask this of Hashem, I ask a Tzaddik for help. And I promise the Tzaddik that in order to receive his blessings, I'm going to increase in a Mitzvah or Torah study. And I will thank the Tzaddik for his bracha and for davening on my behalf, just as I thanked my father yesterday when he told me that he davened for me.

None of this is intelligence or superhuman powers- just to get back to what the point is.

Now about a Tzaddik reading one's mind, etc.

When a person goes into the Rebbe for a meeting, it is called a Yechidus- from the word "Yichud," where the Chossid and the Rebbe become "one."

I think it was the Rebbe Rashab (??) whose clothing were found to be soaking wet after a Yechidus, and when asked why, he explained his job- he has to "unclothe" himself from himself, and put on the "clothes" of the Chossid, search his mind and heart, cry together with him about all his problems materially and spiritually, detach himself from the Chossid and put back the "clothes" of being Rebbe again, in order to help the Chossid with what he needs. And the Rebbe (Rashab?) said, "That's a lot of work! And that's why my clothes are soaking wet."
(Tzena, Crayon, Motek, mali, Atali, somebody, if I've completely messed that up, or you can tell it better than I did, please post!)

We learn that the word "Rebbe" stands for "Rosh Bnei Yisrael"- "head of the Jewish people." Just like the head has a connection to each and every part of the body- because the brain controls the nervous system, etc etc- so too, a Rebbe has a connection to every single one of Bnei Yisroel.
How is this possible? Because a Rebbe is endowed with a unique type of Neshama called the "Neshama Klalis" or a "general Neshama." This kind of Neshama has a connection to every single Neshama in the world, no matter where that Neshama is, across oceans or right there in front of him.

Quote:

I do need respect Moshe Rabbeinu because he turned water to blood, but because he was worthy to be the vessel to preform this miracle.

And you're right. We do not respect someone for the miracles he performs, but because of the person he is.

Quote:

Getting back to this point, to explain the chutzpah- when you have been helped by someone to be born, to be raised, who's sent birthday wishes, who's helped you through dating, engagement, wedding day, and continued to bless you afterwards- my oldest was born only after I asked the Rebbe to bless me with it, and continues to show me which direction I need to be headed accompanied with his blessings, and much more- it would be a chutzpah for me to deny that the Rebbe is involved in my daily personal life.
Just as, if you had a grandfather who at every turn of your life gave you exactly what you needed and wanted, it would be a chutzpah to say that he doesn't know what's going on with you.

I hope that what I wrote is clear and understandable. When you see something so clearly, it's hard to take a step back and describe what's right in front of you.

chocolate moose

Thu, Nov 29 2007, 12:00 pm

GR, if you'd teach a shiur, I'd come! I'd pay for it, too.

gryp

Thu, Nov 29 2007, 12:16 pm

LOL choc moose!
you'd find me sitting right there next to you in the audience!

gonewiththewind

Thu, Nov 29 2007, 12:32 pm

GR wrote:

This may be a case of fools rushing in where angels fear to tread..but I just had to ask. I follow your feelings almost all the way along, but you lose me when you say he is still involved in your personal life and continues to show you direction. How exactly does someone not alive do that? Throughout Jewish history we have turned to people who are alive to guide us and help us. Otherwise why wouldn't we all be turning Avraham Avinu? He is surely greater than our current leaders. Each generation has its own leaders, and we are not supposed to keep dead people as our leaders. I can relate to the feeling of a grandfather who has helped you through your life and you believe he knows what is going on with you. There is a concept of mailitz yosher, but as time goes on and the neshama ascends, it becomes more and more removed from the lower world. We have a concept of "Yiftach bdoro kshmuel bdoro." Though our current leaders may not be as great as past ones, each one is the correct one for his generation and must be respected as such. It seems to be a break with the way klal yisroel acts to continue to seek guidance and leadership from one who has passed, and I am not even going to touch on believing he is still definitely moshiach. While I respect the tremendous work Lubavitch does for klal yisroel, I find this belief frightening for a Jew.

gryp

Thu, Nov 29 2007, 1:01 pm

Quote:

but you lose me when you say he is still involved in your personal life and continues to show you direction. How exactly does someone not alive do that

That's a fair question.
I'm not going to tell you what I personally believe, since I don't want other Lubavitchers on here accusing me of speaking for them. Rather I'll tell you what's done. People feel comfortable with different ways of doing things, and since these issues are close to the heart, they easily fall into controversy. I'm not interested in a debate about them here, I'll say from the very beginning.

To get a bracha from the Rebbe today people can go to the Ohel where the Rebbe is buried and ask for one by writing a pidyon-nefesh (Pa"n) and reading it by the gravesite. We go with the trust that our Pa"n is accepted and the Rebbe will find a way to answer us.

People are always there, frum and not-frum alike. Everytime I've been there it's never been empty. People who don't live in NY can fax in a Pa"n and someone will read it for them by the gravesite.

Another thing people will do is to write a Pa"n, randomly select one of the books of responsa the Rebbe sent out that was compiled- called Igros Kodesh- put the letter in to any page and read the page they opened to as an answer.

Quote:

There is a concept of mailitz yosher, but as time goes on and the neshama ascends, it becomes more and more removed from the lower world.

Yes and no. The Tanya (and other places) teaches us that with a Tzaddik it's a bit different. The Tanya says that the Neshama of a Tzaddik has more potential to be involved with the world down here AFTER the Tzaddik passes away because it no longer has the physical limitations like when it's "entrapped" in a physical body.

Quote:

of "Yiftach bdoro kshmuel bdoro." Though our current leaders may not be as great as past ones, each one is the correct one for his generation and must be respected as such.

Chassidus teaches us that since Moshe Rabbeinu, there has been one great Tzaddik in each generation who is called the "Ra'ya Mehemna" or the "Faithful Shepherd" Hashem appoints in charge of leading the flock of Bnei Yisrael. It's not coincidence that the Avos, Moshe, Rabbi Akiva, etc. were shepherds in their lives.

We (referring to Lubavitchers) know that the generation hasn't passed, since the Rebbe referred to this generation as the last one until the coming of Moshiach.

Quote:

and I am not even going to touch on believing he is still definitely moshiach. While I respect the tremendous work Lubavitch does for klal yisroel, I find this belief frightening for a Jew.

see the last few pages. Wink

I also want to emphasize strongly, that the success the Shluchim have is only because they are sent out with the Kochos and Brachos of the Rebbe. The Rebbe is the force behind them, and each and every one of them will tell you that. They are simply the "men on the ground." (And what a Zechus!)