A frum family needs two incomes?

amother

Violet

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 1:08 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I went into debt over the years, as I know most in the frum community do, because I had no choice.

I don't like it. I really don't like it, and I can't even see that it's a long term solution at all. I'm trying to get a job that will pay everything up, but I'm trying to figure out how to do it. This is why I'm posting.

Like I said, everyone keeps saying that you need two incomes to survive, but I'm trying to figure out how to make that second income and I'm just not seeing it.

Not to mention the ENORMOUS judgment I heard from any friends that I have discussed this with - you would think I was proposing to murder my kids.

You keep asking the same question of how much you can make after accounting for taxes and childcare. It's impossible for any of us to answer that without knowing what your potential salary would be or at least what field you're in so that we could make an educated guess as to how much income potential you have. One of the largest reasons it often pays off for women to work even at a low salary in the beginning is that salary often increases, so even if you're just breaking even with childcare etc at 25, by 35 your salary will hopefully have increased and you'll be able to have more money. It sounds like (by having high school aged children) you're a little older than 25. You need to account for how many years you think you could work for and if the salary increases will pay off. Additionally, there are other "hidden" benefits to working depending on what and where you work. I don't make a huge salary but I have amazing benefits so the healthcare is worth it for me. Do you have a retirement plan? Working in government, even as a secretary, often offers great pensions and retirement health benefits- which might make it worth it in the long run even if you're breaking even now. A lot of jobs also have 401k plans and matches which allow you to save money pre-tax and actually match the money that you save so you're "salary" is higher than it appears.
Finally, working full time requires sacrifices and being okay with certain things. For instance, I work full time and have a full time babysitter for my baby who is also home when my older child gets home from school. I'm not there for them in that way. That's also okay with me. BH we have a babysitter we love and I trust to make sure my kids are happy and healthy. She also cleans so I don't need to pay for separate cleaning help. People are right that its virtually impossible to work full-time and still be home at 9 when your kids leave and at 3 when they get home. You just have to determine what your priorities are. I really don't feel like my kids are missing out in that regard because they love their babysitter-and that doesn't bother me.

watergirl

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 1:08 pm

dorothy1 wrote:

At my children’s school we cannot drop off until 9:00 am. School starts at 915 and ends 345.
Your schedule would not work with the schools in my town. Some buses come earlier , and then it works.

My job also gave me 9 days PTO so that wasn’t nearly enough for all my kids days off , sick days etc.

That's fine, I dont live in your town. My point was, I made it work because we had no choice. Literally.

dorothy1 wrote:

Not everyone has someone they can send their kids to every day after school...
I think the bottom line is for the vast majority of typical frum families , one parent needs a very flexible schedule while there are young kids

Again. If you have to make it work, you make it work. You are speaking like someone who cant imagine life outside of what you know. You are talking about the vast majority of frum families that YOU KNOW. Cant you understand how many frum families have made it work? It may mean finding a new job with more PTO. It may mean moving to a different city. It may mean going to school at night to earn a degree to make more money (I did this a few years ago, I did online classes and in-person classes a few nights a week). Pick a school with hours that are good for you as well.

If you have no choice, then you realize that you have to open yourself up to what you thought you could not do, and you do it.

amother

Chartreuse

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 1:11 pm

I have paid a babysitter in the past to come to my house in the morning around 7 and drive my kids to school. Now, DH and I handle mornings ourselves. We pay babysitters to pick up my kids from school and watch them until 5:30 p.m.

For such recurring small babysitting jobs, it works well if the babysitter is already working or studying nearby during the school hours of the day, and the extra babysitting fits her schedule and commute comfortably. Several of my babysitters have been local teachers making a few extra bucks, two of them non-Jewish.

amother

Orchid

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 1:45 pm

What doesn't seem to be factored in is that having a work history means that eventually you will be making more money so it's an investment in the future.

Or if the only job you currently quality for is a dead end minimum wage job forever, then use the time to acquire very marketable skills so that at least you would be on a career track when you start working.

Most two working people marriages do have to scramble to figure out how to work and make adjustments because they need the money as well as realizing that if a woman (or man) doesn't start working for a significant period of time, they are always going to be handicapped in terms of job - unless of course they are using the time out of the work place to advance marketable job skills.

I didn't have a real sense of exactly how much money my parents made but I absolutely knew that my mother's income was critical for the economic stability of our house and so I never thought that I didn't need to figure out how to bring in as much money as possible within reason.

I realize that there are arguments that the income will all be spent for childcare or that the income will force people off "programs" but at least in my opinion, this forces people to essentially live in poverty for the rest of their life. Either start working so that one can advance to better paid jobs or get training.

amother

Amber

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 2:12 pm

You want to know numbers, nobody can do that for you without knowing your salary, lifestyle, etc. What’s important is that if you want to, you can make it work. You have big kids who can help fill in with child care and help around the house. Assuming DH works full time and you already work part time, you’re probably not on programs so it’s not like the loss of programs should be taken into account.

I’ll throw some numbers: Let’s say you need a babysitter to fill in 2 hours in the afternoon between when the little and big kids get home, at $15/hour that’s $30/day. Add 6 hours of cleaning help/week at the same rate, you’re looking at an added cost of $210/week. You may say it’s not enough cleaning help, I don’t know your life. But do you really think that even with a low paying job, you won’t be bringing home more than $210/week?

amother

Coral

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 2:19 pm

Disclaimer: I did not read through this thread.

I think I lot of families (not just frum, although the problem is exacerbated by having more children and tuition) are in the unfortunate position where they cannot survive on one income, but a second income actually costs money once you have to pay for childcare.

I recently read a book ("Perfect Madness: Motherhood in the Age of Anxiety") that discussed, among other things, the drastic economic and social changes that have made it nearly impossible for less than very affluent families to survive. You can't survive on one income, but it doesn't pay for the second parent to work, either! This was not always the case.

ora_43

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 2:53 pm

A few things.

1. Some of the work you would do as an at-home parent simply doesn't get done. Bookshelves don't get dusted, dinner is simpler, kids get less homework help... Whatever's least important gets dropped.

2. You pay babysitters and house cleaners less than what you're earning.

You mentioned not being high-energy enough to both work full time and clean. But davka if you're not high energy, paying someone else to clean for you can be a good deal. Get someone high-energy to do in 1.5 hours what you do in 2, and pay her 1 hour's worth of your salary - now you're ahead by an hour.

3. Kids pick up the slack. Teenagers wait at the bus stop with younger siblings, or fold the laundry after school. Younger kids learn to do a bit more of the housework than what they've been doing.

4. You think long-term. Even if you're only coming home with an extra, say, $300 a month for the first year. For one thing, that's still more than $0. But more importantly, in three years, your kids are a bit older and can help out around the house a bit more, you have more work experience, your salary is a little higher, and now it's an extra $800 a month.

Eventually your youngest leaves the house, and instead of finding yourself close to retirement age with very little job experience, you have a job you're good at that pays a decent wage, and you can help out with wedding expenses and all that.

In theory, anyway. Obviously all kinds of things can happen. But that's the goal.

ora_43

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 2:59 pm

That's the general thinking. But in your case, OP, it sounds like the problem is more that you and your dh already have two incomes, and they just aren't two very high incomes.

If he's working 13-hour days, and you're working part-time, then that's basically like two people working full-time. Together you put in 16+ hours a day, right? Whatever it is working parents do, you're already doing it.

Is there any way for either of you to increase your income? Even if it would require some training first? It might be worth talking to a career counselor. Or researching it yourself. What jobs are out there, wherever you live, that seem like things you might be good at and pay a decent hourly rate (maybe not immediately, but at least in 5-10 years)?

amother

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 3:13 pm

ora_43 wrote:

My problem is that since DH works full time I can only work part time (at least that's what I was doing until now), and I'm not going to make more than a certain amount if I only work part time. I could technically try to lower my costs, but I've gone through my budget so many times with a fine tooth comb and I just don't see how (ok, above a certain minimum which I am comfortable with).

DH is not changing careers. We've had this argument only about a million times, it's not happening. So if I want things to change, it's up to me.

Like I said, I'm almost finished a degree that has the potential to be quite lucrative, but "potential" is the right word. I would be starting at a low salary, which is discouraging, but I'm hearing from this thread that it would pay to do this so that hopefully I will one day make much more.

Now I have to figure out how to answer all the people who are telling me that I am a monster as a mother...

tilot37354

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 4:41 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I've heard this so many times over the years, but I always wondered how it's even possible. How can two parents both work full time, with the second one making enough money to actually come home with something after paying childcare, taxes, and other work related expenses?

I do know some families where both work full time, but they either have a full time nanny (obviously that's taking a huge chunk of one of their salaries) or they have much older kids.

As you might have guessed, this is my situation and I'm trying to figure out how in the world this is supposed to work. My husband's income is not enough, we truly do need two incomes but no matter how many times I rack my brains, I can't think of a way to actually make enough money for it to be worth it for me to work full time, plus I think the emotional toll on my children might be too high (my husband works more than full time and leaves at 6:00 am and comes home somewhere between 7 and 11 pm).

I wasn't foresighted enough to get a degree in a field with a very high potential income, and if I would join the workforce now, I would start at the bottom, with no guarantees that I would ever make too much more.

Am I missing something?

Is there any type of schooling you can do from home to give yourself a respectable earning potential? Do you have any sort of college credentials?
If your income is in the right brackets, you should be eligible for government subsidized college scholarships.

small bean

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 5:01 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I wasn't in debt until I was married for 20 years.

Do you have money saved up for your daughters seminary? Weddings? If you don't, there's no magic money that appears when you need it.

Yes I do, I have retirement as well. But that's not that point. I need to increase my salary or my husband to as my kids grow. As far as I know my parents were never in debt either, besides a mortgage, they refinanced as needed. They married 11 children. I dont think this should be normal.

You still haven't said what your shortfall per month is. I think knowing that number is the first step. You can't say, no job will make as much as I need right now. Do you need 5k more every month? 10k more? More?

ora_43

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 5:15 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Yes, like I said, I'm almost finished my schooling. Right now, it's more about the time investment than the financial investment. It's another year of studying nights and Sundays, and I'm trying to decide if it's worth it.

Debt vs a lucrative career? What's to decide?

Not trying to be facetious, here. It sounds like a clear choice from what you've said. Unless you have a reason to think that in your case it won't be high-earning?

(I mean technically most fields are potentially lucrative, except maybe poetry and performance art, but sometimes 3 in 4 people make a good income and sometimes it's 1 in 1,000 - so which is it in your case?

If the odds are better than terrible, again, what's to decide? I've seen the jobs available if you don't have an education or some kind of training. They stink.)

amother

Smokey

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 5:26 pm

I think the advantage of working in kids school is lower tuition. Lower salary is lower taxes, possibly lower health insurance costs.

Finish a degree if it will earn you lots of income. If not, start a home business. Work to matching or bypassing your salary.

If you cant get a job, be creative:

If you live in nyc area, take a boarder, ie a college or sem girl. Find the local rate, cut it by $40 a week if she puts your kids on the bus/ takes them off the bus.

Rent out your garage/ driveway space.

Need to be home early? Advertise to be the afternoon sitter. Charge moms reasonable daily rate, watch their kids too.

You CAN move, but not until dh has a job. Out of my area employment is not so simple.

BoomChickaPop

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 5:47 pm

I think the answer to your thread title would depend on the location, size family, size income of one working spouse if the other is a SAHM, and many other factors. I realize it is hard to work full-time especially if you are not used to it, but if you are continuously adding to your debt then it does sound like you would benefit from the second full-time income. If you can finish your degree and work full-time, once established then you may be able to go part-time and then have a higher salary for the same hours you are working now. I think we need a spinoff for ima's that have worked full-time to explain how they managed the morning and afternoon childcare. It is definitely not fun, but I don't think debt sounds too good either (and definitely not as a long term plan). I have had a babysitter in house start at 7am and get my children off to school, I have had babysitters at home at the end of the day for end of day childcare. I have had kids dropped off at babysitters. I have alternated schedules with my DH so that one of us left very early and came home early and the other left late and came home late. Yes, it costed money, lots of money, but I earned more and over the years the difference between money earned and money spent on childcare got bigger. Not sure why people would tell you that you are being horrible to your children, I used to hear that from SAHM's sometimes and I would just answer that it is quality over quantity, the quality of the time that I spent with my kids was very high, I really focused on them when I was home. The truth is that quantity is great too, but I did have an answer for when I got attacked for my choices. Or you can kindly ask your friends if they want to pay your bills Smile