Why do people who know better say "eat by" / "stay by"?

moonstone

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 5:34 pm

amother [ Papaya ] wrote:

There are so many mistakes on this site, that I don't know if it's because English is a second language for so many, or because so many had a sub par education.

Unfortunately, I think it's the second option.

Quote:

One that drives me particularly nuts is 'don't must'. I really hope anyone who utters that combination is NOT a native speaker.

Oy, that drives me crazy, too!! It sounds AWFUL!!!!

Here's another one- a lot of people here say "draw" instead of "drawer". At first I thought it was a typo/autocorrect, but it happens so often that I assume many people think the word is actually "draw"!

amother

Scarlet

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 5:44 pm

moonstone wrote:

I did, till I read it in a book. I was eight years old, but still..,

zaq

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 5:48 pm

estreya wrote:

Ik. One girl I worked with told me "I baked my husband in the oven a chocolate cake." Have to admit I found it funny. LOL

My dad liked to joke, “Throw Momma from the train a kiss.“

iyar

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 5:58 pm

Now that we’ve heard from all the resident linguists and grammar wizzes I’m curious to hear what our expert sociologists have to say. Because other ethnic groups can butcher a language and call the result Creole or Ebonics. We on the other hand are supposed to feel guilty and apologetic when undertones of our language of origin seep into our local language.
?

little neshamala

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 6:05 pm

amother [ Forestgreen ] wrote:

It's not just frum people. I didn't grow up frum, and I have some incorrect expressions that I use in speech casually with friends or in texts, that I wouldn't use in a formal speaking situation or in a piece of writing in the workplace.

I'm sure that there are lots of academic articles that would shed light on your question. Maybe someone here can point you to them.

This.

My non Jewish coworkers say "by" instead of at.
"Im eating by my daughters for thanksgiving"

Mind you, its one daughter she's talking about, but she says "daughters". And this is quite common.

I dont think its a frum thing at all, its just about how the people around you speak.

amother

Lilac

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 6:15 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

To be fair, "by" only sounds better because you're used to it (and presumably grew up with it?). As someone who didn't grow up with people speaking this way, it sounds worse.
ok
"My cousin will be staying with you, but we'll have [or: host] her for the meals." Simple and clean. I can think of 5 other simple and clean ways to get this across without having to use the "by" thing.

To be fair, I didn't grow up with it (see my previous post,) and I find it adorable. To be equally fair, this is obviously a pet peeve of yours, and that's okay. But I don't see the point of you trying to convince all the imamothers that everyone should follow your opinion. Nor do I see any point in trying to convince you that cultural linguistic quirks aren't a big deal. It bothers you. I get it - I have pet peeves, too! I think we all do. That being said ... if you want to debate it, far be it from me to try to stand in your way! Wink

amother

Salmon

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 6:19 pm

iyar wrote:

No one should feel guilty or apologetic.

The key it to be able to 'code switch' as needed.

amother

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 6:24 pm

iyar wrote:

To be fair, most normal people think that someone speaking Ebonics is uneducated and unsophisticated. On that basis, I wonder why anyone would want to be like these other ethnic groups and butcher English.

amother

Seagreen

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 7:05 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

What is so holy about English that it can’t be changed? Sheesh, it’s just a language that evolved from other languages. And could you imagine speaking the original English today? Ha! what would Shakespeare say if he heard the different versions of English today? British, Australian, Indian, South African etc.

Genius

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 7:35 pm

estreya wrote:

I love hearing the English of some Yiddish speakers (the ones who still use it as their main daily language) and not because it is funny but rather because of how the syntax of the translations work. One girl I worked with told me "I baked my husband in the oven a chocolate cake." Have to admit I found it funny. LOL

It sounds awful, but I'm not sure it's grammatically wrong. I think there is actually a name for this kind of (horrible sounding) sentence.
What's funny for me is that you're blaming this on Yiddish. in no way was this sentence translated from Yiddish. Yiddish translation would be "I had baked a cake for my husband in the oven."

tigerwife

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 7:56 pm

So interesting. I wonder if this is a Tristate thing. It’s so common here that hearing “your son is playing by me” or “she was by her in-laws for shabbos” doesn’t sound wrong at all. I am not from a Yiddish speaking background (nor are most of my acquaintances) and I am pretty well-read. Sorry, grammar police. I can relate to cringing from grammar mistakes sometimes but this one is so pervasive here that it’s probably just an evolution of the language already. I disagree that lack of intelligence or education is the culprit.

amother

Salmon

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 8:02 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

snobs think this way.

amother

Hotpink

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 8:27 pm

I will never understand people who get so worked up over grammar mistakes. It's so shallow and close minded. In most cases it's because people speak more than one language or have learning disabilities/ language delays. I would rather hang around people who don't speak perfectly than hang around people that look down at people's mistakes.

Laiya

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 9:30 pm

zaq wrote:

My dad liked to joke, “Throw Momma from the train a kiss.“

My father's joke was about the boy who went outside to play. He called to his mother, Ma! Cut me up and shmear me over and throw me out the window a piece of bread and butter!

boots

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 10:04 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

To be fair, "by" only sounds better because you're used to it (and presumably grew up with it?). As someone who didn't grow up with people speaking this way, it sounds worse.

"My cousin will be staying with you, but we'll have [or: host] her for the meals." Simple and clean. I can think of 5 other simple and clean ways to get this across without having to use the "by" thing.

Will you be having your cousin with red wine or white?

amother

Silver

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 10:28 pm

In my experience, the people most likely to speak dialect ("by" for "at" etc.) are the most likely to insist that there is a religious value
to being formally dressed. Strange, isn't it? If you think that a Jew should dress upper class, why is it acceptable to sound lower class?

amother

Firebrick

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 10:30 pm

"Yiddish grammar also sneaks into English. Orthodox Jews retain a distinct set of Yiddish constructions: “She’s coming to us/staying by us,” “She has what to say,” “What do we learn out from this?” These phrases are actually more commonly used by younger Orthodox Jews than by their parents and grandparents: they create a cultural bond from what was originally a literal translation, by people who didn’t speak English well, of the Yiddish tsu undz, bay undz, vos tsu zogn, oyslernen. Honor thy father and thy mother, including their grammatical quirks: this is the intimate argot of community life."

https://www.yiddishbookcenter......terns

amother

Firebrick

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 10:32 pm

amother [ Silver ] wrote:

It's not about class as much as it is about a flavor of tznius, as well as separation from the outside culture, though the communal inspeak isn't necessarily a conscious choice the way clothes are.

tigerwife

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 10:39 pm

Nobody says “by” instead of “at” deliberately because they want to “sound frum” or “connect to their heritage”. They speak like this because everyone around them speaks like this. There is no deeper meaning. I’m pretty shocked at the nitpicking and judgmental posts here.