Cant stand how much money it costs to be frum

amother

Brown

Thu, Nov 28 2019, 4:37 pm

tryinghard wrote:

Sorry to nitpick, but this has been bothering me for a while: why is tuna on the list of “cheap” foods??? Even if I buy the store brand in bulk (which I can’t do because we are makpid on a different level of hashgacha) it still comes out to over a dollar a can. And a can is 6oz - that works out to $2.66 a pound! I can almost always get chicken for $2.79 a pound at Costco and if I am willing to shop in bulk and freeze, I can get 1.79-1.99 per pound.

So why is tuna considered cheap?

When we were last in Lakewood there was a sale at Bingo for $1 can, the level of hashgacha that we're also makpid on for tuna. We stocked up.

Raisin

Thu, Nov 28 2019, 4:43 pm

amother [ Pearl ] wrote:

Well OBVIOUSLY not all secular and/or nonjewish people buy expensive brand name clothes. And OBVIOUSLY they don't all go clubbing/to concerts etc.
But just because the small number of people you know dont do those things , it doesn't mean anything.

And even if secular is only Jewish non frum.... They go to Temple even if they're conservadox etc. So they also dress fancy. Especially for the high holidays.

I have friends who are conservadox. Their kids have nice outfits for shul, but the rest of shabbos and yom tov they change into leggings and tshirts. They don't really need more then one or two nice outfits.

But this is a small part of the cost of being frum. I could probably easily get passed on shabbos clothing from friends and family if I asked.

Other costs, like being close to shul, or in the eruv, or price of school, yeshiva and seminary, are the real differences.

Mommyg8

Thu, Nov 28 2019, 7:06 pm

tryinghard wrote:

Chicken at $2.79 a pound has a lot of bones which are not edible (at least to me). I make a nice tuna salad that consists of five cans of tuna, four hard boiled eggs and vegetables, and I have a very fillings supper for 10 plus extras for everyone for lunch the next day. Tuna can stretch.

I agree with you that tuna is not the cheapest food on the planet, but it is a relatively cheap source of protein, cheaper than kosher meat or chicken. I also get annoyed when people say, eat tuna to save money, because the savings are not that large, really. I can get two and a half pounds of chicken cutlets for around $3.79 when I shop around for a sale, that's not a huge difference in price between that and tuna and we have a really nice supper.

I was using the classic examples that people give for cheaper meals, I don't mean that I am forcing anyone to eat tuna, especially if you don't like tuna. You can make an even cheaper supper from oatmeal or pancakes, but it doesn't have protein so some don't like to serve it for supper. I guess there are excellent suppers you can make from beans and lentils and rice, I just have no idea as I have never tried them.

My point really was that you have options. You don't have to serve tuna for supper, but you CAN. If you believe in Jewish education, then you can't opt out of it. That's all.

amother

Ecru

Thu, Nov 28 2019, 8:50 pm

I have three theories why frum Jews often seem more materialistic than non Jews.

A) When your annual earnings are 50k and expenses are 40k, spending an extra 10k to live a higher lifestyle is pretty excessive. You're spending an extra 20% more than necessary. By frum Jews, we're spending so much anyways that we don't feel the $20 difference as much, because we spent that day $500 shopping for food and $250 on tuition. When you spend in higher amounts, the smaller amounts feel less meaningful.

B) Our communities are much closer together, so we're much worse at minding our business and not feeling pressured to keep up with the Joneses.

C) (The most controversial and unsubstantiated)
I think that Jews were created to always have a drive for something more. This was intended to be a spiritual drive, but for people that aren't spiritually focused, this drive for satisfaction will manifest itself in the physical realm. You'll rarely see a Jew making 35k a year, with a serene property in Kansas, spouse, 2 kids, and a dog, with a relaxed lifestyle to sit outside on the deck in the evenings watch the moon. Jews are seemingly way too driven to always have more, and never happy with what we have. In the business world, it's called "hungry". I think that's why secular Jews are so disproportionately financially successful (look at all the hedge fund managers and big names in tech, medicine, and finance) - it's because they're never satisfied with what they have. By nature, they were designed that way, but they aren't exposed to religion and spirituality to let this passion and drive run as intended, so they're always trying to get a bit more material success in hopes that it will quench that unexplained unsettling inner craving that can't seem to be satisfied. They may be billionaires, but they'll never be as rich or as happy as the people living on the Kansas farm that have everything they want and no interest in anything else, and are satisfied with their lot. Obviously, this is a blatantly unscientific theory.

allthingsblue

Thu, Nov 28 2019, 10:25 pm

amother [ Ecru ] wrote:

I agree with B.

I also think that we are experiencing the downside of the incredible technological advances.
In the Olden days we spent hours prepping and cooking food, doing laundry etc. As things became easier and automated, that left us with more time on our hands. What are we doing with that time (starting from childhood)? Many avenues and interests are discouraged, especially after a certain age. That leaves... fashion and food. I don't find materialism to be as rampant in communities where intellectualism and meaningful and interesting volunteer work is encouraged.

amother

Gold

Fri, Nov 29 2019, 7:34 am

OOT'er living in NY.
You dont have to live NY mentality. Married 18 years, never bought a bedroom set. Beds and cheap dressers still holding up.
Nothing wrong with IKEA bookshelves. Or cheaper couch and dining room table/chairs. If it lasts 10 years, at $1000 each, buying new a few times is still cheaper (maybe the same for the couch) as buying expensive furniture initially. And nicer to have fresh modern furniture anyway instead of sunken, scratched, and all the pretty things kids do to furniture.
Simchas are out of control. The upshernish is the new bar mitzva, the bar mitzvas are like weddings.
It's ok to do how it was done decades ago. Small simchas. People need a break from invitations anyway. The more I make small simchas, the more I find people who do the same. I'm not up to the wedding stage yet, that's tricky since 2 families have to agree.
Clothing doesn't have to be from 13th Ave. So many cheaper tznius options online. How much clothing do kids need, they wear uniform 6 days a week? If I can only find tznius clothing at kidichic, I wait for the sales. End of season is super cheap. Last summer I bought for this coming summer. Who cares if it's last year's style.
Tuition is a killer. But our kids spend most of their life at school. BH the admins have worked with us and are reasonable. We are literally paying for our children to learn the hows and whys of being frum, to have frum friends in a frum atmosphere, and of course to learn and gain skills for life. Is that not the most valuable thing?
I'm a SAHM, working part time from home. No cleaning lady, no vacations, I buy food either cheap staples or on a good sale. My kids make their beds every morning and we all chip in to clean the house and do the laundry.
I also don't own a car. Renting as needed, car services sometimes, and public transportation is cheaper than a car with all its expenses.

I aim for a pressure-free joyful home for my kids to grow up in. Still working at it. But this is what works for me. Not everything will work for everyone.

JoyInTheMorning

Fri, Nov 29 2019, 8:21 am

amother [ Pearl ] wrote:

My remarks are based on observations of many hundreds of secular people that I know. Your remarks are based on what? What in the world do you know about people who go clubbing?

And please realize that secular does not equal committed Conservative or Conservadox or Reform. I don't know to what extent choice of denomination and level of commitment among the non-Orthodox affect a family's expenses, so I'm not commenting on that. (Though I do know that my Conservadox and Conservative friends dress relatively simply for shul; they wear their business or business casual clothing, so it's not an extra expense for them.) But I think it's important that we not denigrate people who belong to other Jewish denominations. If you mean non-Orthodox, just say so.

naturalmom5

Fri, Nov 29 2019, 1:52 pm

amother [ Ecru ] wrote:

It may not be scientificly proven

BUT THE CHAZON ISH SAYS THIS
IN EMUNA U BETOCHIN

I heard c) word for word in a shiur

mig100

Sat, Nov 30 2019, 8:32 pm

allthingsblue wrote:

I also agree with b and everything else in this post

amother

Cyan

Sat, Nov 30 2019, 11:32 pm

amother [ Ecru ] wrote:

C) (The most controversial and unsubstantiated)
I think that Jews were created to always have a drive for something more. This was intended to be a spiritual drive, but for people that aren't spiritually focused, this drive for satisfaction will manifest itself in the physical realm. You'll rarely see a Jew making 35k a year, with a serene property in Kansas, spouse, 2 kids, and a dog, with a relaxed lifestyle to sit outside on the deck in the evenings watch the moon. Jews are seemingly way too driven to always have more, and never happy with what we have. In the business world, it's called "hungry". I think that's why secular Jews are so disproportionately financially successful (look at all the hedge fund managers and big names in tech, medicine, and finance) - it's because they're never satisfied with what they have. By nature, they were designed that way, but they aren't exposed to religion and spirituality to let this passion and drive run as intended, so they're always trying to get a bit more material success in hopes that it will quench that unexplained unsettling inner craving that can't seem to be satisfied. They may be billionaires, but they'll never be as rich or as happy as the people living on the Kansas farm that have everything they want and no interest in anything else, and are satisfied with their lot. Obviously, this is a blatantly unscientific theory.

Interesting, but unconvincing.
First, there really are some frum Jews who are content with their lot. Second, Jews may be disproportionately represented in some areas, but that has more to do with opportunity in the United States than anything else. You'll notice that Jews in contemporary Europe don't stand out the same way. And third, there are many poor Jews, even in rich countries

Also, by tagging materialism to an inherent, positive, trait, you let people off the hook. Materialism is not attractive or healthy. It's not evil, but it's nothing to be proud of, either. An individual or a community with materialistic tendencies should be trying to change, not looking for excuses.

amother

Wine

Sat, Nov 30 2019, 11:42 pm

If you've listened to any lectures by Ken Spiro...he makes this exact point. Jews are disproportionately driven to succeed...Not only financially but in many areas. Spiritual DNA we inherited from Avraham. He never would have stood his ground and been able to accomplish what he did without being extremely driven. He proves how, if you follow the patterns of Jewish history, you see this in every place Jews lived, and in every century. It is meant to be channeled into spirituality but that's not always how it comes out.

amother

Ecru

Sun, Dec 01 2019, 12:17 am

amother [ Cyan ] wrote:

It's positive to be driven towards good things. It's negative to be driven towards bad things. I don't think materialism is good. I think it's mischanneled motivation for advancement. If the alternative is listlessness and disinterest in life, it's hard to say that's better.

Jews in contemporary Europe certainly do stand out. It's not just materially... Look at percentage of Nobel prizes and similar that go to Jews. We're not good at going with the flow and being satisfied with our lot. Overly
Obviously, it's not everyone (we stereotype Asians as being good at math, even though it's not everyone, and Africans as being athletic, even though it's not everyone, ect, because it's more prevalent among certain groups than the general society), but it's certainly disproportionate among Jews. This is a purely statistical anomaly triggered anthropological observation.

Of course there are poor people. Not everyone that tries to cure cancer is successful, and not everyone that tries to make money is successful. A person has to put in the effort, but ultimately results come from G-d alone.

Pointing out that there are frum Jews that are satisfied with their lots only strengthens the theory. The theory is that people that are spiritually driven don't need the distraction and misguidance of materialism under the mistaken notion that it will satisfy their cravings. It's the ones that don't have a spiritual alignment that feel a disquieting craving for something more in their lives, and being as they don't recognize it as a spiritual desire, they attempt to quench it with materialistic, artistic, or scientific achievement.

Obviously, that's not an excuse to be materialistic, just like being strong isn't an excuse to beat people up. Beating people up is a misuse of strength, and materialistic pursuit is a misuse and perversion of dissatisfaction with mediocrity and adequacy in pursuit of greater meaning and accomplishment.

amother

Cyan

Sun, Dec 01 2019, 12:51 am

amother [ Ecru ] wrote:

So why do you think that the further right you go in Orthodox Judaism, the higher the material standards get?

PinkFridge

Sun, Dec 01 2019, 8:23 am

amother [ Wine ] wrote:

Rabbi Tatz also speaks about this, how different drives are really just manifestations of spiritual urges. Like wanderlust, to discover new things, can be channeled in discovering Torah.