Would you want to be corrected?

shanie5

Sat, Dec 15 2007, 10:05 pm

mumoo, I have the same problem/question as u. its especially hard when u can barely tell the difference btw the vav and the fey sound.
if they say the wrong brocha-and that has happened, then of course I correct them-in a nice way of course.

Quote:

I am one of those women ("v'Sam instead of v'sham")who needed to be corrected. I am really glad that my Mikvah lady did so, because I would forever wonder if the tevila was truly kosher.

the tevilla would still be valid, the v'sam is in the yehi ratzon, which is an extra tefilla we say.

we also have the brocha and the yehi ratzon hanging just above the water so that u can walk up to it and read it with your nose to the laminated paper if u need to. its also transliterated for those who cant read hebrew.

mumoo

Sat, Dec 15 2007, 10:23 pm

I'm sure you have the same issues, Shanie. My question was whether it is halachically required of me to correct. In the yehi ratzon, of course I know I don't have to, but then there is the issue of should I correct anyway. The concensus here is that I should, women want to know.

But in the brocha, I know that while it's better to say it correctly, a wrong brocha (or absence of one) doesn't invalidate the tvila.

We also have a chart, with both the brocha and yehi ratzon, in Hebrew, in English and transliterated. But women who think they say it right don't really read it carefully.

Should I tell women they should separate the top from bottom?
Should I tell them they should make the brocha out loud?
Should I tell women it's best to toivel once before the brocha and twice after?
Should I tell them they should look at me after toiveling?

I know none of these are crucial either, but are preferred many. Where do I draw the line where women don't want to know these things?

shanie5

Sat, Dec 15 2007, 11:27 pm

Quote:

Should I tell women they should separate the top from bottom?
Should I tell them they should make the brocha out loud?
Should I tell women it's best to toivel once before the brocha and twice after?
Should I tell them they should look at me after toiveling?

separating top from bottom is not universal-some cross arms over chest, and my kallah teacher taught me to cover my eyes like I was lighting shabbos candles (I dont actually remember that, but I asked her again years later and that is what she said).

brocha out loud is preferable, but not required. and anyway, we dont know that they will say the brochato themselves until after they say it. however, if there was a 'regular customer', who I know doesnt say the brocha out loud, and I remember before she starts, then I would probably request her to say it loud enuf for me to be able to answer amen.

the way a person toivels is usually their custom-learned from their mothers or kallah teachers. if one does differently, they may have reason for it. u can politely ask what their backround is that they do it differently, but again, it is not neccessary to correct them - unless they ask for advice.

as for loooking at u after toiveling, that problem I dont have. cuz when they are done, they are supposed to "buzz" me so I can let them out. but that I would probably try to do-as the first thing they see should be something kosher-and I have had a situation where a woman left and saw a dog outside the building. the fact that she had seen me first made it so that she did not have to retoival-though the rav said it would have been even better if she had touched me too.

baba

Sun, Dec 16 2007, 6:17 am

If I said the bracha wrong I for sure would want to know.
[quote="mumoo"]
Should I tell women they should separate the top from bottom?
Should I tell them they should make the brocha out loud?
Should I tell women it's best to toivel once before the brocha and twice after?
Should I tell them they should look at me after toiveling?quote]
Bu these examples you brought I think are a lot more sensitive. Separation isnt that clear cut, alot of women do it differently, there isnt one way. If a person is saying the bracha quietly it's most likely someone who's embarassed, maybe a BT, and you telling them to say it out loud will make it even more embarassing. Again, the amount of times a woman tovels is very different according to minhagim, most ashkenazim do 3, but 2 is fine, so is more. And the looking at you again is not a halacha, some women just might not care for it. If it really bothers you, you could say something to them, anything, which will just make them look up, or like I've often had, the mikva lady gives you a hand right when you come out.

mumoo

Sun, Dec 16 2007, 11:37 am

I understand what you are saying that those items are not halacha and therefore more tricky. But that was my question, because the brocha is also not crucial to the validity of the tvila.
So I guess I should be correcting women on the brocha, obviously after the fact, but not saying anything about the rest.

I just figured from what most of you were saying here, that you would want to be corrected in order to toivel in the 'best' way, so I was just blurry on where to draw the line. Apparently, it's at the brocha. ok

shanie5

Sun, Dec 16 2007, 2:02 pm

mumoo, the 'best' way is relative to a persons minhagim.

many women say the brocha and the yehi ratzon at the same time-no dip in btw. one day, a womean -married about 18 years- told me that she was giving kallah classes to a kallah and was looking up halachos. she learned that one should dip after the brocha and not make a hefsek w/ the yehi ratzon. she was upset that for 18 years she wasnt doing it the 'better way'.

well, I called the rov and he said she is right-it is better to dip after the brocha and before the yehi ratzon. so here is how I let people know:

as I checked them, I told them this story-w/o names- and then they were able to make the decision whether or not the 'better way' was for them. most changed, but not all. the other wat isnt wrong, so I do not harp on them for it. one lady even said to me "I've been doing it this way for 25 years, I'm too old to change now". and then a few months later, decided she would change.

shanie5

Sun, Dec 16 2007, 2:23 pm

[quote="mumoo"]

shanie5 wrote:

mumoo, the 'best' way is relative to a persons minhagim.quote]

so many bt's without any

thats true. so just tell them stories youre checking them and if they are interested, they will pick up on it.

ruchel-I think its more of an american custom - definitely not only for the chassidish. I say american custom as women who have been to mikvah in israel have told me that israeli mikvah ladies have called saying the yehi ratzon an "american narishkeit".

yoyosma

Sun, Dec 16 2007, 4:06 pm

mumoo, I am curious by what you mean that the women should look at you.
At my mikvah, when I am done, she holds up the bathrobe covering her eyes, I climb out, she puts it on my shoulders and makes sure to pat my back. Once the attendant didnt touch me and I asked her to.

Is that uncommon? Do most attendants leave?

shanie5

Sun, Dec 16 2007, 4:18 pm

yoyo, if the attendant is holding up the robe, u dont see her. if u go straight to the room w/o looking at her after putting on your robe, then let yourself out when u are done, you have not looked at anything kosher before leaving the mikvah. that is what mumoo is refering to-I think

mumoo

Sun, Dec 16 2007, 8:08 pm

The idea is to have the first thing you see after becoming tahor is something else tahor, as opposed to, let's say, a cat. So any person, being a tzelem elokim, fits the bill.

Shanie, here is a perfect example of my dilemma- it's not wrong if a woman doesn't look at me, but it's better if she does, and noch besser if she touches me. So where and when should I correct/educate her, if at all?

I'm beginning to think there is no real answer, I'll continue to play it 'by ear', tell stories if the opportunity is there, feel out the woman if she is normally one to be mikdakdek, avoid correcting the woman who feels pained at being there in the first place.