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-> Judaism
-> Halachic Questions and Discussions
amother
Coffee
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Tue, May 12 2020, 10:53 am
amother [ Ginger ] wrote: | Interesting.
It actually points out pretty clearly that:
1. It has to do with the times. Itโs not a biological difference.
2. If they were obligated they would need to put on tefillin anyway.
So it seems weโre all really saying the same things, that:
1. Women are not less clean. Today.
2. They are not obligated.
Still, itโs a manโs mitzva.
My husband never asks to do the hafrashas challah ๐. |
Just want to point out that hafrashas challah is not a mitzvah that was given only to women. As with hadlakos neiros, women are given priority with regard to performing the mitzvah, but both men and women are equally obligated.
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amother
Ginger
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Tue, May 12 2020, 10:57 am
amother [ Coffee ] wrote: | Just want to point out that hafrashas challah is not a mitzvah that was given only to women. As with hadlakos neiros, women are given priority with regard to performing the mitzvah, but both men and women are equally obligated. |
Right.
Women just take precedence.
Men definitely have more mitzvos, no one can argue about that!
We can only argue about โwhy?โ
The reason is NOT that women are inferior. Really really not.
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Aylat
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Tue, May 12 2020, 10:58 am
amother [ Coffee ] wrote: | Just want to point out that hafrashas challah is not a mitzvah that was given only to women. As with hadlakos neiros, women are given priority with regard to performing the mitzvah, but both men and women are equally obligated. |
Supporting this point.
Hafrashat challa is an obligation pertaining to the dough. If it meets the requirements then someone has to take challa. No dough, no hafrashat challa.
Tefillin is an obligation on the person (man). If there are tefillin on a shelf, no one needs to go and put them on. The obligation is for a man to put on tefillin each day and if he doesn't have, he has to find a pair somehow.
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amother
Coffee
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Tue, May 12 2020, 10:59 am
Aylat wrote: | Supporting this point.
Hafrashat challa is an obligation pertaining to the dough. If it meets the requirements then someone has to take challa. No dough, no hafrashat challa.
Tefillin is an obligation on the person (man). If there are tefillin on a shelf, no one needs to go and put them on. The obligation is for a man to put on tefillin each day and if he doesn't have, he has to find a pair somehow. |
Very Brisk: cheftza vs. gavra (lol)
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CiCi
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Tue, May 12 2020, 11:08 am
Aylat wrote: | Thank you for your apology/retraction.
There are multiple sources, not one.
Do you read/understand Hebrew sources? I earlier quoted the Taz, Biur haGra and Pri Megadim as saying "women are not careful to be clean." I can repost with a translation if you want. Imasoftov quoted (I think) the Maharam. You quoted Tosafot. |
I have not followed the entire thread from the beginning, but if you say that's what they write then I believe you. However, oftentimes there are lengthy explanations offered by other sources and in surrounding verses, so read in context they may refer to something different than the quoted verse(s).
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malki2
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Tue, May 12 2020, 12:29 pm
Aylat wrote: | This is an interesting point and could also possibly answer the question. |
I made this point yesterday. People did not appreciate the idea that women cannot control their flatulence.
Last edited by malki2 on Tue, May 12 2020, 12:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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malki2
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Tue, May 12 2020, 12:32 pm
dancingqueen wrote: | Iโm a little surprised by the explanation that women fart more, when generally women try to be much more demure than men about that kind of thing. Perhaps things were different then. |
The explanation given is that while men are definitely less inhibited about farting in public, women definitely do have a harder time controlling their farts, due to the given reasons. According to the study that I read, womenโs farts also smell 2.7 times worse than menโs.
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Aylat
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Tue, May 12 2020, 1:08 pm
amother [ Coffee ] wrote: | Very Brisk: cheftza vs. gavra (lol) |
Yep, was thinking that as I wrote.
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amother
Magenta
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Tue, May 12 2020, 3:40 pm
The scholarship exhibited by women on this thread has really wowed me.
I would like to offer 2 perspectives that arenโt based on text, rather more on (what I perceive to be) common sense.
1)
men and women are apples and oranges. We are different creations. Separate but equal. We have (generally speaking) different bodies, different emotional, spiritual and mental composition.
We donโt NEED tefillin for our spiritual growth (or minyan or many other mitzvos) like men do. Our spiritual growth is attained in different ways than theirs, as we are not in the same category. Think of 2 students, equally bright but with different mental strengths. One will do well in math but need a science tutor and vice versa in the other student. Neither is superior to the other, yet they require different tools to bring them to fill their potential.
Men are not inherently superior to us, nor are we to them.
2)
In modern society, women generally feel a need to prove themselves equally capable as men. This may follow the misconception that accomplishments (mainly financial or external) are a measure of success and competence.
Women with children are definitely at a disadvantage to men in these areas. We arenโt as physically strong and our careers often cannot be our main focus.
When we define ourselves in relation to success in a manโs world, we will always be playing catch-up as we are inherently at a disadvantage.
Women are meant to be celebrated for being women. Different than men, with our own unique contributions to the world. When we redefine ourselves, measuring success against our womanly potential, the question of
our worth in relation to men becomes far less of an issue.
To illustrate, a farmer and a doctor both bring huge benefit to mankind. Neither should be comparing himself to the other. Each one has his own inherent worth, and neither can survive without the other.
To summarize, if we ourselves knew our own value, and didnโt constantly question our worth in relation to men, we would be in a far better place. There would be no inferiority complex and therefore the ambiguity in Chazalโs statements would not automatically be assumed to be degrading to women.
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amother
Blush
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Tue, May 12 2020, 3:45 pm
Didnt see mentioned anywhere, just a thought... may be 1 reason this particular mitzvah is discouraged is because it exposes her biceps? Just a thought, no tomatoes please...
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Aylat
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Tue, May 12 2020, 3:55 pm
amother [ Blush ] wrote: | Didnt see mentioned anywhere, just a thought... may be 1 reason this particular mitzvah is discouraged is because it exposes her biceps? Just a thought, no tomatoes please... |
This is an interesting thought, but I'm not aware of this being cited as a reason by any source. Happy to be corrected.
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amother
Ginger
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Tue, May 12 2020, 4:00 pm
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amother
Ginger
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Tue, May 12 2020, 4:03 pm
I tried copying and pasting the article above but when doing that the Hebrew got messed around. Sorry!
Will try again.
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Aylat
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Tue, May 12 2020, 4:12 pm
amother [ Magenta ] wrote: | The scholarship exhibited by women on this thread has really wowed me.
I would like to offer 2 perspectives that arenโt based on text, rather more on (what I perceive to be) common sense.
1)
men and women are apples and oranges. We are different creations. Separate but equal. We have (generally speaking) different bodies, different emotional, spiritual and mental composition.
We donโt NEED tefillin for our spiritual growth (or minyan or many other mitzvos) like men do. Our spiritual growth is attained in different ways than theirs, as we are not in the same category. Think of 2 students, equally bright but with different mental strengths. One will do well in math but need a science tutor and vice versa in the other student. Neither is superior to the other, yet they require different tools to bring them to fill their potential.
Men are not inherently superior to us, nor are we to them.
2)
In modern society, women generally feel a need to prove themselves equally capable as men. This may follow the misconception that accomplishments (mainly financial or external) are a measure of success and competence.
Women with children are definitely at a disadvantage to men in these areas. We arenโt as physically strong and our careers often cannot be our main focus.
When we define ourselves in relation to success in a manโs world, we will always be playing catch-up as we are inherently at a disadvantage.
Women are meant to be celebrated for being women. Different than men, with our own unique contributions to the world. When we redefine ourselves, measuring success against our womanly potential, the question of
our worth in relation to men becomes far less of an issue.
To illustrate, a farmer and a doctor both bring huge benefit to mankind. Neither should be comparing himself to the other. Each one has his own inherent worth, and neither can survive without the other.
To summarize, if we ourselves knew our own value, and didnโt constantly question our worth in relation to men, we would be in a far better place. There would be no inferiority complex and therefore the ambiguity in Chazalโs statements would not automatically be assumed to be degrading to women. |
I agree with much of this. I do not feel inferior as a woman. I am secure in my female-ness. I instinctively feel that I am of value and my actions have significance. I have no problem with the idea of equal but different.
The question that imorethanamother and amother Coffee are asking is how to understand statements of Chazal that seem to contradict my belief that I am equal (though different) to men.
The thread was triggered by sources saying women aren't as clean as men. This reads at face-value as a derogatory comment. I have arrived at an understanding of these sources that satisfies me as not being insulting. (Thank you to those posters who contributed to this.) I can't speak for imorethanamother/coffee and others; they may not be satisfied with my answer.
One of the things I have been trying to convey here and on the darchei noam thread is that there's a personality that is not content with hearing, "don't worry, there are good answers, it's all okay." We want to know (insofar as possible) what the answers ARE. We ask questions not to challenge the edifice of Torah, nor because we are insecure, but because we really want to understand.
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amother
Ginger
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Tue, May 12 2020, 4:13 pm
ืืืฉื ืืืฉืจืื
This article was written by a kallah teacher I know, enjoy. Itโs long but offers a nice perspective.
*This article was adapted from a shiur by ืืฆ"ื ืืืจ"ืฉ ืคืื ืงืืก on the topic of The Essence of the Jewish Woman. Some explanations added to facilitate for Kallahs.
The most important ingredient in ืฉืืื ืืืช is that each side, husband and wife should understand their role and obligation, to ื' and to each other.
It says "ืืฉืจื ืืืืฉ ืืฉืจ ืื ืืื ืืขืฆืช ืจืฉืขืื...ืื ืื ืืชืืจืช ื' ืืคืฆื ืืืชืืจืชื ืืืื ืืืื ืืืืื" -
Fortunate is the one who doesnโt follow bad waysโฆ but rather follows the Torah. Everyone has a Torah to follow in life.
The rich man should concentrate on his Torah, the poor man on his Torah. Etc. Everyone should concentrate on their own obligations.
In a marriage, the husband should focus on his obligations and the wife on hers.
A Manโs Obligations:
Pretty easy to define. To learn ืชืืจื as much as he can, and to support it as much as he can, Marry, ืคืจื ืืจืื, ืืืื & ืืชืจืื, ืกืืื etc. (Many of the ืืฆืืืช that are ืฉืืืื ืืจืื women arenโt ืืืื in. Some of these ืืฆืืืช women were ืืงืื on themselves but men are much more obligated).
Womanโs Obligations:
To understand it we need some background of the woman and her role.
Background:
When ื' created the world, in the heights of the heavens there were "ืฉื ื ืืืืจืืช ืืืืืืื" - the sun and the moon.
We know that the sun and the moon are a mashal to the man and the woman.
Theyโre like a mother and father to the world and bring lots of blessing to the world. (Rav Pincus).
The ืืืจื says:
Thereโs a contradiction. The ืคืกืืง starts by telling us ืืช ืฉื ื ืืืืืจืืช ืืืืืืื (the two big luminaries) and then it says ืืช ืืืืืจ ืืืืื ืืืืฉืืช ืืืื ืืืช ืืืืืจ ืืงืื ืืืืฉืืช ืืืืื. (The big one to rule by day, the small one to rule at night).
Q. Why?
A. At first they were the same size, but the moon complained and said โืืื ืฉื ื ืืืืื ืืฉืืฉืื ืืืชืจ ืืืโ (two kings canโt share the same crown).
The implication was โI should be bigger than the sunโ. ื' said โืืื ืืืขืื ืืช ืขืฆืื โ - so go make yourself smaller.
This ืืืจื is pretty famous, almost everyone knows it. But the ืืืจื continues, and this part is much less famous:
The moon was extremely hurt!
She said โI said something correct, why do I deserve to become smaller?
ื' said sheโs right. And ื' decided to appease the moon.
So ื' said โืืื ืืจืื ืืช ืืืืโ- Iโll give you armies of stars! But she wasnโt happy. So ื' said: I see youโre still insulted that youโre called ืงืื so realize โืฆืืืงืื ืืงืจืื ืืฉืืโ- big ืฆืืืงืื will be called ืงืื like you. ืืขืงื ืืืื ื is called โืืขืงื ืื ื ืืงืืโ, and by ืืื ืืืื it says โืืื ืืื ืืงืืโ.. But the moon was still not appeased.
So then ื' said โืืืืื ืขืื ืืคืจื ืฉืืืขืืชื ืืช ืืืจืโ
Which means as follows:
ื' said on ืจืืฉ ืืืืฉ we have special ืงืจืื ืืช and one of the ืงืจืื ืืช is a ืืืืช which is for ืืคืจื - for atonement. It says ืืฉืขืืจ ืขืืื ืืืืืช ืื' - a chatas for ื' , a ืืคืจื for ื', so to speak. Because ื' said youโre right, I did something wrong and this ืงืจืื is to atone for that, kivyachol.
Q. If ื' agreed with the moon, why bring a ืงืจืื?? Why not make the moon big again, like it used to be? A ืงืจืื you bring after you fixed things up, so why are we not fixing it and just bringing a ืงืจืื ืืืืช?
A. This fixed it. This appeased the moon.
Because: Originally, they were ืฉื ื ืืืืจืืช ืืืืืืื, two big luminaries.
ืจืืื ื ืืืื: This does not mean there were two suns. No.
The sun was a ball of fire- a ball of energy.
And the moon was a reflection of that.
But they were facing each other with 100 percent concentration of each other, like a perfect mirror. (later they werenโt).
And just like by a mirror - if you stand in front of it - all of the beauty of the person standing in front of the mirror will reflect in the mirror. Same too with the sun and the moon.
The moon is like a mirror.
In the beginning they were facing each other - just like when you put a flashlight in front of a mirror- you really canโt tell whereโs the flashlight and whereโs the mirror - they both shed light, even though one is the origin of light and one is the reflection of the light. Thatโs how it was.
But thereโs a question:
Q. If this was the case why did the moon complain that she wants to be bigger than the sun? You canโt be bigger than what you reflect!?
This is the big question.
But thatโs exactly what the moon was saying and complaining about.
She said: The sun gets its ืื (energy) from ื', and I only get mine from the sun!
It says โืื ืขืื ืืงืืจ ืืืื ืืืืจื ื ืจืื ืืืจโ - the source of light is from ื'- the sunโs light is from ื'โs light.
And the moon only gets it from the sun because the moon is a reflection of the sun.
That was her complaint. I donโt want to get it from the sun, I want to get it straight from ื'!
The moon basically asked: To connect to ื' straight. Thatโs clear, because you obviously canโt be bigger than what you reflect. So it canโt be that she wanted to be bigger in SIZE than the sun.
Q. Why did she care?
A. There can be two reasons why she wanted to get her koach straight from ื':
1. She was jealous.
2. Maybe in reality really she really just wants to feel close to ื'.
So, everything we said up until now was just to test the moon! When ื' said she will get stars, if she was jealous, she would now be happy because now sheโs even better than the sun, she has stars, sheโs more special! But she said no, Iโm not jealous, thatโs not my issue, โI want to be close to ื'โ. And she wasnโt appeased.
So ื' tested her again with โืฆืืืงืื ืืงืจืื ืืฉืืโ - being called ืงืื is actually pretty special- big ืฆืืืงืื weโre called like that! But she said no, Iโm not jealous, thatโs not the issue, I want to be close to ื'! And I said something which is correct, I donโt want to ONLY reflect the sun.
So ื' said : โืืืืื ืขืื ืืคืจื ืฉืืืขืืชื ืืช ืืืจืโ.
Which means: (will explain in short why this appeased her).
The whole issue of ืจืืฉ ืืืฉ is what actually in practicality appeases the moon.
Because, ืจืืฉ ืืืฉ is the basis of ALL the ืืืขืืื, ืจืืฉ ืืฉื ื, ืืื ืืืคืืจ, ืกืืืืช, ืคืกื, ืฉืืืขืืช, etc.
The NATURAL phenomenon of ืจืืฉ ืืืฉ is the ืืืื, the birth of the new moon. When the moon is completely facing the sun itโs a full moon, when itโs turned away, itโs half a moon, a quarter moon, three quarters moon etc. ืืืื means the FIRST CONNECTION between the sun and the moon. This is the natural phenomenon of ืจืืฉ ืืืฉ, in NATURE.
However: According to the ืชืืจื, the ืืืื is still not what ultimately decides ืจืืฉ ืืืฉ, even though you would think it should.
Because: We have ืชืืจื reasons to change when ืจืืฉ ืืืฉ is. For example:
1. We donโt want ืืื ืืืคืืจ to ever fall out on a Sunday or a Friday.
2. We donโt want ืืืฉืขื ื ืจืื to be on Shabbos. Etc.
So if the natural ืืืื comes out as above, we push off ืจืืฉ ืืืฉ!
So here we see that the ืืืื, the birth of the moon is not depending on the sun but depending on the decision of ืชืืจื. And whoโs the decision of ืชืืจื? ื'!
So thatโs why now the moon was happy.
She wanted to be attached to ื', not dependant on the sun, and on ืจืืฉ ืืืฉ she has what she wants, ืจืืฉ ืืืฉ is the decision of ืชืืจื which is the decision of ื'.
The above is a very deepืืืจื . And Itโs a ืืฉื.
Bottom line: The whole issue of a man and a woman is really the issue between the sun and the moon.
In modern times, the nonreligious world has a lot of complaints about the differences between men and women.
We see men have many ืืฆืืืช that women donโt: ืกืืื, ืืืื, ืฉืืคืจ, many ืืฆืืืช ืฉืืืื ืืจืื (some they were ืืงืื, like ืฉืืคืจ - โืงืืืื ืขืืืื ืืืืืโ, but itโs still not the same as men who are really obligated). And the most important ืืฆืื is ืืืืื ืืชืืจื, and women arenโt obligated in ืชืืืื ืชืืจื, only in learning what they need. So women donโt have the same dedication to learning ืชืืจื. (ื ืฉืื ืืื ืืืืื is not a ืืืื either, itโs a merit and reward).
In nature, the man is like the sun.
The sun is the origin of energy, of heat, of light. The man generates greatness. Whether itโs ืชืืจื or mitzvos or whether heโs out in the world building the factories and earning the money, generally the building of the world is supposed to be the role of the men.
The woman: By creation the woman is like the moon.
โืืืช ืื ืืืืจืื ืืืืโ(ื' ืงืืื) - has nothing on its own, sheโs like a mirror.
The nature of the woman is to connect, thatโs her talent.
A man has a mitzva to get married. A woman has to get married by nature. To connect- otherwise sheโs nothing. (Rav Pinkus vs. Rav Tauber difference in opinion).
The essence of a woman is to connect and reflect. Nature tells her this, you donโt need to make a mitzva out if it. Thatโs her essence.
The ืืจื (woman) said:
Q. Why do I need to reflect the sun? If I have a talent to reflect, if Iโm a mirror, then I can reflect ื'. And if I can reflect ื' then I can be bigger than the sun. Because the sun has no talent to reflect - just to generate. I can reflect, so I want to reflect ื'. And if I reflect ื' Iโll be greater than the sun.
This can come from jealousy or from purity of wanting ืงืจืืช ื'.
So ื' tested the moon.
And it was revealed that all she wants was pure ืงืจืืช ื'.
ื ืืฉื: A woman by nature does not have the ืชืืจื the man has, the ืืฆืืืช the man has, all the energies the man has!
ื' gave her the talent to reflect.
By nature, sheโs supposed to reflect her husband (the sun). It creates the spark and completion of the home system; she gets the home to run and โworkโ.
(Think of a ืคืกื without a wife, a ืกืืืืช, a ืฉืืืขืืช, never mind having childrenโฆ)
Thereโs nothing passive about her, she is the ืขืงืจืช ืืืืช and by connecting to her husband, her connection creates the completion of the ืืืช ื ืืื' system' and gets it to work.
She depends and connects to her husband, but when a woman has the talent to connect and reflect, she can CHOOSE to connect and reflect Hashem. Whatever she connects to, thatโs who she becomes, and that is entirely in her ืืืืจื. When she chooses to connect to her husband AND to ื' thatโs the ideal, to connect to him ืข"ืค ืชืืจื, ืืงืืืฉื ืืืืจื.
And the Torah says about such a woman โืืฉืช ืืื ืขืืจืช ืืขืืโ.
Such a great woman is a crown to her husband.
A crown means an origin (ืฉืจืฉ) and is above her husband - Thereโs only one crown.
Theyโre one entity, but sheโs the crown.
This is the answer to the moon: The moon wanted to reflect ื', that can only happen by โืืืขืื ืืช ืขืฆืืโ - making yourself small. Because if you generate, you canโt reflect. To become BIG, you need to become SMALL - to be able to attach to Hashem. (ืืืขืงื ืืื ืืงืื).
The reason ื' created the woman in the way of โืืืช ืื ืืืจืื ืืืืโ - like a mirror, with a ืื to reflect is because she has the obligation in life and in her home to connect and to create the connection to ื'! Whatever she decides to connect to, whatever she programs herself towards โ thatโs what she becomes. That becomes her. Thatโs why she has to be careful what sheโs exposing herself to (movies terrible for women) because that becomes her essence.
Q. Whatโs more beautiful a mirror or a picture of the ืืคืฅ ืืืื?
A. It really depends on what the mirror is reflecting. If the mirror is reflecting that beautiful picture, itโs literally the same beauty. Thatโs what the mirror is now. But if itโs reflecting a dog (movies, magazines) then of course the picture of the ืืคืฅ ืืืื is much greater. But if whatโs in front of the mirror is a picture of ืืืืฉืข ืื ื ืื , then the mirror is now reflecting that and is now greater than the picture of the ืืคืฅ ืืืื because at the end of the day ืืืืฉืข ืื ื ืื was greater than even the ืืคืฅ ืืืื. (Rav Pincus says this),
Because she has the ืื and talent to connect and reflect, that becomes who she is โ whatever she connects to, thatโs what she reflects and thatโs what she becomes!
Her ืขืืืื, her role is to connect to her husband while always having the basic connection to Hashem as well, just like the moon.
This is how ื' wants it and this is how ื' designed a ืืืช ืืืฉืจืื.
Q. So how does she become ืขืืจืช ืืขืื? How does she connect to Hashem?
A. Sheโs in charge of the three foundations of the home. ืืื -physical, ื ืจ (candles) -emotional, ืขื ื (cloud)-spiritual. And with her mind she programs herself to connect to ื' with her entire being and her entire life. She does physical things but elevates it all with her ืืืฉืื (thought) to be ืืฉื ืฉืืื. Just like the ืืื ืืืื who did ืขืืืื which looked physical, in the ืืืช ืืืงืืฉ and it was all ืืฆืืืช , and all for ื'.
A womanโs role is all spiritual. Even cooking and baking - food is life and life is ืจืืื ืืืช - โืื ืืฉืืืื ืฉืืคื ื ื'โ- pure spiritual. Itโs all in her ืืืฉืื, if she does all her ืืฉืืืืช (physical things) for ื' (spirituality), all her life is pure ืจืืื ืืืช, and sheโs connected to Hashem her entire life, even more than her husband. (ืืืืื ืชืืจื is nearly impossible not to transgress).
She can program herself to have a constant connection to ื'.
Thatโs how she becomes ืขืืจืช ืืขืื, the crown, his pride and glory.
(A man has many ืืฆืืืช that a woman doesnโt, she doesnโt need those to connect to ื', sheโs connected by default as long as she turns towards ื' and programs herself that way. She was created with the talent to connect wirelessly, with the automatic ability to connect and be one with ื'. No wires necessary. Itโs a higher level. Thatโs why she says โืฉืขืฉื ื ืืจืฆืื ืโ in davening. He thanks ื' for his โwiresโ โ his ืืฆืืืช so he says โืฉืื ืขืฉื ื ืืฉืโ because the mitzvos are eternally precious and he got so many, much more than her. The mitzva of learning is especially tremendous, so heโs very grateful. She has another role, she was created closer to the way ื' wants man to be, with constant connection and reflection of Hashem, all she needs to do is decide to turn to Hashem (stay away from ืืืืื and filth) and be ืืืืื ืืช ืืื to ื' and then sheโs all ืจืืื ืืืช).
Q. Is she supposed to connect to ื' or connect to her family?
A. When youโre connected to the family, youโre connected to ื'. ื' wants โืืืื ืืืฉืจ ืืืโ ื' wants her to become one with her husband and achieve greatness together.
If a man and wife are connected ืืงืืืฉื, ื' connects them. If itโs not with ืชืืจื, not with ืงืืืฉื- then the ืืฆืจ ืืจืข connects them.
In a Jewish home the connection to the husband is by definition the connection to Hashem. And sheโs the one who has this talent in how to make it happen. Thatโs why it says โืืืืช ื ืฉืื ืื ืชื ืืืชืโ. She uses her wisdom to always angle their home in the right direction, towards the ืฉืืื ื.
His primary role is to learn. (or support ืชืืจื if he canโt learn it himself). Thatโs his "ืืืชืืจืชื ืืืื ืืืื ืืืืืโ.
She also got a parallel โืืืื ื ืืื ืืืื ืืืืืโ in raising the children and being the interior designer of her home, as well as ืชืคืืื. (She can daven all day, from her heart , doesnโt need to be formal davening from a ืกืืืืจ).
Obviously, she can still work, and do all types of other stuff, (so can a man who is unable to learn Torah) but generally, this is her PRIMARY role. The above is their primary obligations and primary roles.
This is how sheโs an ืขืืจ ืื ืืื (ืื ืืื - Mirror) and this is how she achieves a beautiful home in ืขืืื ืืื while earning their beautiful ืืืง together in ืขืืื ืืื. She connects to her husband in a way that she knows also brings in the ืฉืืื ื.
ืขืืจ ืื ืืื is in two ways:
1. She stands opposite him and attaches and reflects. This is when sheโs comfortable. ืืฉื ืืฉืจื ืขืืฉื ืจืฆืื ืืขืื.
2. When sheโs not comfortable with something, she says this does not sit well, wait, slow down, letโs figure this out, letโs ask a ืจื etc. She may look like sheโs going ืื ืืื, against him โ but really, itโs a ืขืืจ for him also.
This is how ื' wants a Jewish marriage to work. Thatโs why ื' designed him like the sun and her like the moon in the marriage relationship.
In reality all their accomplishments are shared. Children as well as learning, and any other ืืฆืืืช and accomplishments that they are ืืืื to do. The reward is all shared, as long as theyโre marriage partners. This is just the division of the roles.
As we know the story with ืจืื ืื ืื ื ืื ืืืกื, that a golden table leg came down to help them with their ืคืจื ืกื and they asked that it should be taken back because they saw that THEIR table in ืฉืืื was missing a leg. He was the one who learned the ืชืืจื, she โjustโ connected to him and to ื'. It did not include as many ืืฆืืืช as him and she definitely didnโt learn as much as him. She baked the challah etc., but they were one unit, and forever they share the SAME table.
Side note: Women can be in generating positions too. Professionals, teachers and principals CEOโs, bosses, and have all types of generating positions in life. The Torah allows that as long is its within the confines of halacha. They donโt have to only be home. But her primary role in the marriage relationship is being the ืขืงืจืช ืืืืช, the ืืฉื ืืจืืช ื', thatโs how she becomes ืืฉืช ืืื ืขืืจืช ืืขืื, itโs important to remember that and then she can accomplish this while working as well. Itโs all in the mind. This is the recipe for a ืืืช ื ืืื, this is how the system is meant to work. Theyโre one unit, he generates, she connects to him and to ื'. With this type of connection, she becomes his pride and glory, his crown.
Examples of times when our ืืืืืช and ื ืฉืื ืฆืืงื ืืืช listened to their inner voice while connected to their great husbands and reflecting ื':
ืฉืจื ืืืื ื with ืืฉืืขืื, ืจืืงื ืืืื ื with ืขืฉื getting the ืืจืืืช, ืจืื and ืืื with the ืกืืื ืื, the wife of ืืื ืื ืคืืช, ืืกืชืจ ืืืืื with ืื ืื ืืก, and of course other great women in our history.
Throughout history, great women connected to ื' and trusted their own inner voice as well even while being connected to their husbands. They received from their husband, but they were not passive and didnโt dissolve themselves and their inner voice. When a husband and wife connect, together with ื' connecting them, thatโs how they become one holy unit. Thatโs how they achieve greatness. And itโs up to the woman to connect while ensuring that sheโs connected to ื' as well.
Women got ืืื ื ืืชืจื to know how to do this in a way of ืฉืืื and peace as it says โืืื ืฉืืื ืืืืื ืฉืืื ืืืจืื ืืชืืโ โ may there be peace in your ืืื (ืืื can mean valour, as ืืฉืช ืืื) and tranquility in your palaces. And as it further says and we recite each week when welcoming the ืฉืืช ืืืืื into our homes โืืืื ืืฉืืื ืขืืจืช ืืขืืโ โ come with peace, bโdarchai shalom.
This is the role of an ืืฉื ืืืฉืจืื.
The above is actually also the description of the connection between ืืื ืืฉืจืื (moon) and the ืืืืืช ืืขืืื (sun). Our job as Jews is to connect to ื' in His world and thus bring His ืฉืืื ื into it. Itโs a topic for another article but the idea is the same and ืืืจ"ืฉ ืคืื ืงืืก ืืฆ"ื does mention it here in short, itโs a role that all Jews have in ื'โs world, as a ืืฉืจืื, the ื ืืจ ืืืจืืื!
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Aylat
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Tue, May 12 2020, 4:19 pm
Double post
Last edited by Aylat on Tue, May 12 2020, 4:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Aylat
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Tue, May 12 2020, 4:20 pm
Ginger wrote: | Womanโs Obligations:
To understand it we need some background of the woman and her role.
Background:
When 'ื created the world, in the heights of the heavens there were "ืฉื ื ืืืืจืืช ืืืืืืื" - the sun and the moon.
We know that the sun and the moon are a mashal to the man and the woman.
Theyโre like a mother and father to the world and bring lots of blessing to the world. (Rav Pincus). The ืืืจื says:
Thereโs a contradiction. The ืคืกืืง starts by telling us ืืช ืฉื ื ืืืืืจืืช ืืืืืืื (the two big luminaries) and then it says ืืช ืืืืืจ ืืืืื ืืืืฉืืช ืืืื ืืืช ืืืืืจ ืืงืื ืืืืฉืืช ืืืืื. (The big one to rule by day, the small one to rule at night).
Q. Why?
ืืื ืฉื ื ืืืืื ืืฉืืฉืื โ A. At first they were the same size, but the moon complained and said
.)two kings canโt share the same crown( โืืืชืจ ืืื
The implication was โI should be bigger than the sunโ. 'ื said โืืื ืืืขืื ืืช ืขืฆืื โ - so go make
yourself smaller.
This ืืืจื is pretty famous, almost everyone knows it. But the ืืืจื continues, and this part is much less famous:
The moon was extremely hurt!
She said โI said something correct, why do I deserve to become smaller? .decided to appease the moon ื' said sheโs right. And ื'
So 'ื said โืืื ืืจืื ืืช ืืืืโ- Iโll give you armies of stars! But she wasnโt happy. So 'ื said: I see youโre still insulted that youโre called ืงืื so realize โืฆืืืงืื ืืงืจืื ืืฉืืโ- big ืฆืืืงืื will ืืื ืืื โ it says ืืื ืืืื and by ,โืืขืงื ืื ื ืืงืืโ is called ืืขืงื ืืืื ื .like you ืงืื be called .But the moon was still not appeased ..โืืงืื
โืืืืื ืขืื ืืคืจื ืฉืืืขืืชื ืืช ืืืจืโ said ื' So then
Which means as follows:
- ืืคืจื which is for ืืืืช is a ืงืจืื ืืช and one of the ืงืจืื ืืช we have special ืจืืฉ ืืืืฉ said on ื' for atonement. It says 'ืืฉืขืืจ ืขืืื ืืืืืช ืื - a chatas for 'ื , a ืืคืจื for 'ื, so to speak. Because .is to atone for that, kivyachol ืงืจืื said youโre right, I did something wrong and this ื'
Q. If 'ื agreed with the moon, why bring a ืงืจืื?? Why not make the moon big again, like it used to be? A ืงืจืื you bring after you fixed things up, so why are we not fixing it and just bringing a ?ืงืจืื ืืืืช
A. This fixed it. This appeased the moon.
Because: Originally, they were ืฉื ื ืืืืจืืช ืืืืืืื, two big luminaries. .This does not mean there were two suns. No :ืจืืื ื ืืืื
The sun was a ball of fire- a ball of energy.
And the moon was a reflection of that.
But they were facing each other with 100 percent concentration of each other, like a perfect mirror. (later they werenโt).
And just like by a mirror - if you stand in front of it - all of the beauty of the person standing in front of the mirror will reflect in the mirror. Same too with the sun and the moon.
The moon is like a mirror.
In the beginning they were facing each other - just like when you put a flashlight in front of a mirror- you really canโt tell whereโs the flashlight and whereโs the mirror - they both shed light, even though one is the origin of light and one is the reflection of the light. Thatโs how it was.
But thereโs a question:
Q. If this was the case why did the moon complain that she wants to be bigger than the sun? You canโt be bigger than what you reflect!?
This is the big question.
But thatโs exactly what the moon was saying and complaining about.
She said: The sun gets its ืื (energy) from 'ื, and I only get mine from the sun!
It says โืื ืขืื ืืงืืจ ืืืื ืืืืจื ื ืจืื ืืืจโ - the source of light is from 'ื- the sunโs light is from .s lightโื'
And the moon only gets it from the sun because the moon is a reflection of the sun.
!ื' That was her complaint. I donโt want to get it from the sun, I want to get it straight from
The moon basically asked: To connect to 'ื straight. Thatโs clear, because you obviously canโt be bigger than what you reflect. So it canโt be that she wanted to be bigger in SIZE than the sun.
Q. Why did she care?
:ื' A. There can be two reasons why she wanted to get her koach straight from 1. She was jealous.
.ื' Maybe in reality really she really just wants to feel close to .2
So, everything we said up until now was just to test the moon! When 'ื said she will get stars, if she was jealous, she would now be happy because now sheโs even better than the sun, she has stars, sheโs more special! But she said no, Iโm not jealous, thatโs not my issue, โI want to be close to 'ืโ. And she wasnโt appeased.
So 'ื tested her again with โืฆืืืงืื ืืงืจืื ืืฉืืโ - being called ืงืื is actually pretty special- big weโre called like that! But she said no, Iโm not jealous, thatโs not the issue, I want to be ืฆืืืงืื close to 'ื! And I said something which is correct, I donโt want to ONLY reflect the sun.
.โืืืืื ืขืื ืืคืจื ืฉืืืขืืชื ืืช ืืืจืโ : said ื' So
Which means: (will explain in short why this appeased her).
The whole issue of ืจืืฉ ืืืฉ is what actually in practicality appeases the moon.
Because, ืจืืฉ ืืืฉ is the basis of ALL the ืฉืืืขืืช ,ืคืกื ,ืกืืืืช ,ืืื ืืืคืืจ ,ืจืืฉ ืืฉื ื ,ืืืขืืื, etc.
The NATURAL phenomenon of ืจืืฉ ืืืฉ is the ืืืื, the birth of the new moon. When the moon is completely facing the sun itโs a full moon, when itโs turned away, itโs half a moon, a quarter moon, three quarters moon etc. ืืืื means the FIRST CONNECTION between the sun and the moon. This is the natural phenomenon of ืจืืฉ ืืืฉ, in NATURE.
However: According to the ืชืืจื, the ืืืื is still not what ultimately decides ืจืืฉ ืืืฉ, even though you would think it should.
Because: We have ืชืืจื reasons to change when ืจืืฉ ืืืฉ is. For example: 1. We donโt want ืืื ืืืคืืจ to ever fall out on a Sunday or a Friday.
2. We donโt want ืืืฉืขื ื ืจืื to be on Shabbos. Etc.
!ืจืืฉ ืืืฉ comes out as above, we push off ืืืื So if the natural
So here we see that the ืืืื, the birth of the moon is not depending on the sun but depending on !ื' ?ืชืืจื And whoโs the decision of .ืชืืจื the decision of
So thatโs why now the moon was happy.
She wanted to be attached to 'ื, not dependant on the sun, and on ืจืืฉ ืืืฉ she has what she wants,
.ื' which is the decision of ืชืืจื is the decision of ืจืืฉ ืืืฉ .ืืฉื And Itโs a .ืืืจื . |
Ginger, the above is very deep. Thank you for this new understanding.
The rest I donโt connect to but I won't debate here since it off-topic for this thread which isn't about gender roles as such.
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amother
Ginger
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Tue, May 12 2020, 5:41 pm
Aylat wrote: | Ginger, the above is very deep. Thank you for this new understanding.
The rest I donโt connect to but I won't debate here since it off-topic for this thread which isn't about gender roles as such. |
My pleasure, take the parts you like ๐
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