|
|
|
|
|
Forum
-> Coronavirus Health Questions
Miri1
|
Wed, May 20 2020, 11:50 pm
SixOfWands wrote: | Don’t have to. Wait for 9 more to arrive in the next room.
Ideally, these are all set up in advance anyway. |
Actually the idea in the works is that the minyanim would be like "chaburos" - the same 10 would daven together each time.
But the the technical issues with only allowing 10 as opposed to say 12, mean that minyanim may have more flux. If someone doesn't show, they'll just pull in someone else from outside the group.
| |
|
Back to top |
0
3
|
SixOfWands
|
Wed, May 20 2020, 11:50 pm
amother [ Papaya ] wrote: | I am so so jealous. I live in a state that basically threw us in jail and tossed away the key, and Jews are such a small percentage that no one cares what we think or what we want.
See you all next year! |
Unless the state has declared that Jews may not hold communal services, but Xian’s and Muslim may, that’s ridiculous.
| |
|
Back to top |
0
4
|
SixOfWands
|
Wed, May 20 2020, 11:56 pm
Miri1 wrote: | Actually the idea in the works is that the minyanim would be like "chaburos" - the same 10 would daven together each time.
But the the technical issues with only allowing 10 as opposed to say 12, mean that minyanim may have more flux. If someone doesn't show, they'll just pull in someone else from outside the group. |
Yes, that’s what I think will happen. And that you would either be assigned a time and place, or sign up for one in advance, especially on Shabbat and Yom Tov. I believe you will also need your own siddur.
Presumably, this will also allow people to learn together on Shavuot.
| |
|
Back to top |
0
1
|
cbsp
|
Thu, May 21 2020, 12:18 am
SixOfWands wrote: | In other words, nothing Cuomo does will make you happy. 10 is a minyan. Why are more needed?
This isn’t a “crumb.” It’s exactly what people say they wanted. Until they got it, and need to still attack Cuomo. |
I'm not following how your response answers my post.
Did the governor tell Home Depot that they have a quota of money they're allowed to earn in a day and after that they need to be closed? As far as I know the restrictions on stores that were allowed to be opened were either left up to the stores or based on occupancy. There seems to be a logical way to determine how to crowd control but still allow shoppers to go about their business.
We have a religious need for our religious institutions. It is not up to any government official to dictate what is a necessary obligation for a religious individual.
But to answer your question as to why I'm not happy:
Each individual should be davening with a minyan, we don't only need a minyan for a shul's existence.
I don't know other religions but to compare to what once was, it would be like saying "well, we allowed those Jews to bring the korban tomid, why are they complaining that no one else was allowed to bring their karbonos."
In other words, it's nice that there will be kaddish said in a community again, but why can't it be done in a safe way that enables the maximum rather than the minimum number of people to participate properly for their own obligations.
| |
|
Back to top |
0
5
|
SixOfWands
|
Thu, May 21 2020, 12:28 am
cbsp wrote: | I'm not following how your response answers my post.
Did the governor tell Home Depot that they have a quota of money they're allowed to earn in a day and after that they need to be closed? As far as I know the restrictions on stores that were allowed to be opened were either left up to the stores or based on occupancy. There seems to be a logical way to determine how to crowd control but still allow shoppers to go about their business.
We have a religious need for our religious institutions. It is not up to any government official to dictate what is a necessary obligation for a religious individual.
But to answer your question as to why I'm not happy:
Each individual should be davening with a minyan, we don't only need a minyan for a shul's existence.
I don't know other religions but to compare to what once was, it would be like saying "well, we allowed those Jews to bring the korban tomid, why are they complaining that no one else was allowed to bring their karbonos."
In other words, it's nice that there will be kaddish said in a community again, but why can't it be done in a safe way that enables the maximum rather than the minimum number of people to participate properly for their own obligations. |
I wasn’t aware that people in Home Depot sit down together for anywhere from half an hour to 2 hours, talking (well, davening, using their mouths). Maybe I go to the wrong store.
And how is the conversation going to go. Andrew, 10 isn’t enough. We need more. Hmmm, let me ask a rabbi. Rabbi says you need 10. So why do you need more? Well .... look, 12 would be nice. And I doubt anyone is going to do anything about 12. But more is risky for now. Maybe in a few weeks.
Oh, and the point is that you can’t differentiate between religions. Just like you can’t say Xian’s can meet, Jews can’t, you can’t give different numbers per sect.
| |
|
Back to top |
0
2
|
cbsp
|
Thu, May 21 2020, 12:52 am
SixOfWands wrote: | I wasn’t aware that people in Home Depot sit down together for anywhere from half an hour to 2 hours, talking (well, davening, using their mouths). Maybe I go to the wrong store.
And how is the conversation going to go. Andrew, 10 isn’t enough. We need more. Hmmm, let me ask a rabbi. Rabbi says you need 10. So why do you need more? Well .... look, 12 would be nice. And I doubt anyone is going to do anything about 12. But more is risky for now. Maybe in a few weeks.
Oh, and the point is that you can’t differentiate between religions. Just like you can’t say Xian’s can meet, Jews can’t, you can’t give different numbers per sect. |
Again.
There are occupancy numbers per each building /room. Start there. X number of feet between each person, reduce permitted occupancy by whatever is the safe number. The time factor is a straw argument - just look at the subways. Or the pharmacies. Or Target, where people are standing in line for an hour talking away either with their shopping companions or on the phone.
Why should a large church building be limited to only 10 people? Because the Jews have 10 as a minimum? Why should a shul be restricted to its minimum? The shul as an entity "holding services" is not just an item to check off a list.
I'm not understanding why you're making it out to be the benevolence of the governor who's doling out privileges based on religious requirements. Why on earth should he be telling ANY religion what their numbers should be?
| |
|
Back to top |
0
9
|
amother
Maroon
|
Thu, May 21 2020, 9:08 am
cbsp wrote: | Again.
There are occupancy numbers per each building /room. Start there. X number of feet between each person, reduce permitted occupancy by whatever is the safe number. The time factor is a straw argument - just look at the subways. Or the pharmacies. Or Target, where people are standing in line for an hour talking away either with their shopping companions or on the phone.
Why should a large church building be limited to only 10 people? Because the Jews have 10 as a minimum? Why should a shul be restricted to its minimum? The shul as an entity "holding services" is not just an item to check off a list.
I'm not understanding why you're making it out to be the benevolence of the governor who's doling out privileges based on religious requirements. Why on earth should he be telling ANY religion what their numbers should be? |
So why the number 10 limit? Some shuls are huge, while others are one room basements. If Home Depot has the right to adjust its occupants according to their size, shuls should too.
BTW, this is the argument KJ used two weeks ago when they legally reopened their shuls. Shuls were allowed 2 seats per table. Once filled, you had to wait for next minyan.
| |
|
Back to top |
0
7
|
amother
Mint
|
Thu, May 21 2020, 9:31 am
You can't compare davening to going shopping. The virus spreads much more when people are talking, praying and singing. There was a a choir practice of over 100 people were 87% tested positive after it spread to all from one person.
| |
|
Back to top |
0
7
|
cbsp
|
Thu, May 21 2020, 9:56 am
amother [ Mint ] wrote: | You can't compare davening to going shopping. The virus spreads much more when people are talking, praying and singing. There was a a choir practice of over 100 people were 87% tested positive after it spread to all from one person. |
I specifically mentioned standing in line for this reason. Or the subway cars/public transportation. There's plenty of talking going on on the. At a much closer distance.
And everyone is masked and taking precautions. The choir that got sick was not maintaining social distancing nor wearing masks.
The 10 people limit makes zero sense medically or scientifically without the context of size of the establishment. It makes no sense even with the context of size unless it's a facility that can only accommodate exactly 10 people with the safety rules.
It's an arbitrary number picked as a way to pander and we're calling him out for it.
| |
|
Back to top |
0
5
|
cbsp
|
Thu, May 21 2020, 9:56 am
amother [ Maroon ] wrote: | So why the number 10 limit? Some shuls are huge, while others are one room basements. If Home Depot has the right to adjust its occupants according to their size, shuls should too.
BTW, this is the argument KJ used two weeks ago when they legally reopened their shuls. Shuls were allowed 2 seats per table. Once filled, you had to wait for next minyan. |
Yup, that's precisely my point.
| |
|
Back to top |
0
4
|
Miri1
|
Thu, May 21 2020, 10:23 am
SixOfWands wrote: | Yes, that’s what I think will happen. And that you would either be assigned a time and place, or sign up for one in advance, especially on Shabbat and Yom Tov. I believe you will also need your own siddur.
Presumably, this will also allow people to learn together on Shavuot. |
My point was that it will be less effective because with the 10 person limit there will be more mixing between groups.
A 12 person limit would really (in theory) keep the groups self sufficient.
| |
|
Back to top |
0
2
|
amother
Mint
|
Thu, May 21 2020, 10:50 am
I really don't undestand the NY mentality expressed here to be honest. What is all this about expecting to have the autonomy to do as you wish?
You live somewhere, you need to keep to the rules. Do you think Cuomo is the only governing body who said minyanim have to close whereas essential stores can remain open?
Shuls have been closed worldwide as a safety precaution. We're all in this together and we are all (hopefully) keeping to the regulations as long as we need to. Now they have been restarted in NY so you can be thankful and move on. It isn't that hard to keep to the 10-person limit. You do what you have to do.
| |
|
Back to top |
0
7
|
cbsp
|
Thu, May 21 2020, 10:58 am
amother [ Mint ] wrote: | I really don't undestand the NY mentality expressed here to be honest. What is all this about expecting to have the autonomy to do as you wish? You live somewhere, you need to keep to the rules. Do you think Cuomo is the only governing body who said minyanim have to close?
Shuls have been closed worldwide as a safety precaution, and we are all (hopefully) keeping to the regulations as long as we need to. |
That's actually not the point. We're not discussing that the shuls were closed.
We're discussing why we're not overly enthusiastic with the way they're being opened. We absolutely should be given the autonomy to figure out our specific religious observances in a legal and safe manner.
| |
|
Back to top |
1
8
|
mig100
|
Thu, May 21 2020, 9:23 pm
amother [ Mint ] wrote: | I really don't undestand the NY mentality expressed here to be honest. What is all this about expecting to have the autonomy to do as you wish?
You live somewhere, you need to keep to the rules. Do you think Cuomo is the only governing body who said minyanim have to close whereas essential stores can remain open?
Shuls have been closed worldwide as a safety precaution. We're all in this together and we are all (hopefully) keeping to the regulations as long as we need to. Now they have been restarted in NY so you can be thankful and move on. It isn't that hard to keep to the 10-person limit. You do what you have to do. |
Guess what?????? I lived in my my whole.life and I dont get it either.
I'm beyond grateful go live someplace where the government cares and wants to protect our lives?? ( even if in don't agree with exactly how they go about it, which I dont)
Would u rather live in a place like china where the gov let's people die to protect the economy?? I wouldnt
| |
|
Back to top |
0
2
|
tryinghard
|
Thu, May 21 2020, 9:32 pm
amother [ Mint ] wrote: | I really don't undestand the NY mentality expressed here to be honest. What is all this about expecting to have the autonomy to do as you wish?
You live somewhere, you need to keep to the rules. Do you think Cuomo is the only governing body who said minyanim have to close whereas essential stores can remain open?
Shuls have been closed worldwide as a safety precaution. We're all in this together and we are all (hopefully) keeping to the regulations as long as we need to. Now they have been restarted in NY so you can be thankful and move on. It isn't that hard to keep to the 10-person limit. You do what you have to do. |
It’s not just NY, and it’s not just the Jews. I’m Minnesota, there’s a huge controversy right now because in their reopening guidelines, starting June 1st, restaurants are permitted to have 50 people outdoors, but churches can only have 10 even outdoors, even with proper SD.
There is actual discrimination going on against religious institutions from NY to California and so many other states, and the DOJ is starting to crack down on it.
| |
|
Back to top |
0
6
|
amother
Maroon
|
Thu, May 21 2020, 9:34 pm
tryinghard wrote: | It’s not just NY, and it’s not just the Jews. I’m Minnesota, there’s a huge controversy right now because in their reopening guidelines, starting June 1st, restaurants are permitted to have 50 people outdoors, but churches can only have 10 even outdoors, even with proper SD.
There is actual discrimination going on against religious institutions from NY to California and so many other states, and the DOJ is starting to crack down on it. |
I can see a huge lawsuit coming.
| |
|
Back to top |
0
1
|
amother
Slategray
|
Thu, May 21 2020, 9:34 pm
truthfully I am shocked at jews talking about jews "whining" to have a minyan
speechless
very sad
B"H shuls are able to open safely
| |
|
Back to top |
0
2
|
amother
Natural
|
Thu, May 21 2020, 9:45 pm
cbsp wrote: | That's actually not the point. We're not discussing that the shuls were closed.
We're discussing why we're not overly enthusiastic with the way they're being opened. We absolutely should be given the autonomy to figure out our specific religious observances in a legal and safe manner. |
I think it has been abundantly clear that many, many, many Americans don't make safe choices when given autonomy (or when they choose to practice autonomy despite the law). This puts those who do wish to make safe choices in a very difficult situation, as other people are effectively undermining those choices.
| |
|
Back to top |
0
5
|
Related Topics |
Replies |
Last Post |
|
|
Inexpensive family vacation near tri state area?
|
14 |
Tue, Apr 09 2024, 12:45 am |
|
|
Kosher Hotels tri-state area
|
3 |
Tue, Apr 02 2024, 8:15 pm |
|
|
Is this allowed?
|
7 |
Sun, Jan 28 2024, 11:42 am |
|
|
ISO Hotel in tri state or nearby
|
8 |
Mon, Jan 15 2024, 8:33 pm |
|
|
3 day relaxing tri state area
|
1 |
Wed, Jan 10 2024, 4:08 pm |
|
|
Imamother may earn commission when you use our links to make a purchase.
© 2024 Imamother.com - All rights reserved
| |
|
|
|
|
|