Jewish school tuition inflation as bad as US colleges?

amother

Amber

Tue, Sep 08 2020, 11:39 pm

amother [ Cerulean ] wrote:

All of this is just details. The core of the issue is we now expect our entire society to be able to afford two mortgage style expenses, one for the house, one for tuition, while simultaneously limiting their parnossoh potentials and encouraging large families.

Once we make sense of that, the other details can be worked about.

Not all religious Jews limit their children's parnassa potentials. And of course, there's aliyah if you want free or very low cost Jewish education.

The problem is wanting it all - the upper middle class lifestyle while having large families and paying tuition. (Obviously even harder for those who do restrict parnassa potentials.)

amother

Emerald

Wed, Sep 09 2020, 5:15 am

amother [ Green ] wrote:

Yup I went to public school (BT) and teach in one now! Why should parents have control over the curriculum or who the teachers are? Are they experts in education? One of my pet peeves is when everyone thinks they can teach because they went to school. Just like with yeshivot, there are some excellent public schools and some lousy ones. If we put our collective energy into supporting our local ones instead of stripping their budgets and sending our kids elsewhere, more could be great.

I don't think parents should have control over the curriculum but I think they should have control over the values being taught and in the current age there are plenty of teachers who don't just stick to the curriculum and instead attempt to inculcate certain value systems. I have no desire to put my kids with a bunch of other kids and teachers who share opposing value systems to my own. Our local public school has refused to open in Northern NJ where cases have been low for months despite parent protests and meeting the requirements the governor set out for schools reopening. This is just one example of the school and the admin being ridiculous. Public school admins don't have students interest at heart. I thank G-d every day my kids school opened in a very safe manner with the kids best interests in mind. I'd be beyond livid if my kid were in the public school that didn't open for no apparent reason.

Even beyond that, it wouldn't work. This is essentially what a lot of christians did. They sent to public school and supplemented with Sunday school. Now the only orthodox christians are the ones who send their kids to catholic School. There are just too many outside influences in a public school. I really think the reason we still have a community is due to private schooling. Also, this would really really limit where Jews could live. You would be forced to stay in one of the huge Jewish communities in order to make sure there is a critical mass of kids so that your kid isnt' one of 10 orthodox kids in his grade of 100. You would basically be limiting people to living in one of the major metro areas and even in a small subset within those metro areas because all Orthodox Jews would have to make sure they're zoned to the same school. I think the Jewish community as a whole should put a lot more effort into directing more government spending to private schools, similar to what they have in England, where the government funds the secular studies of Jewish schools and parents pay tuition for the religious aspect.

amother

Wed, Sep 09 2020, 12:07 pm

amother [ Emerald ] wrote:

I think the Jewish community as a whole should put a lot more effort into directing more government spending to private schools, similar to what they have in England, where the government funds the secular studies of Jewish schools and parents pay tuition for the religious aspect.

Not going to happen in the US in any meaningful sense. The swamp, public unions, bureaucrat "educators," etc. are far too powerful to give up 1) power, and 2) money. A few states have voucher programs and it's been a monumental struggle to get them passed, and they still seem to barely make a dent in the cost of Jewish tuition.

amother

Green

Wed, Sep 09 2020, 1:05 pm

amother [ Emerald ] wrote:

You can't really use the school opening situation to say admin don't have kids' interests at heart. The interest is safety. Many public schools in NJ don't have air conditioning in most of the building. Many have classrooms with windows that don't open. This is a big concern when we know that covid is airborne. Many Jewish schools were able to open because they have the $$ to put into improvements, less students and staff, and, of course, pressure from a paying parent body to make the necessary improvements. You can't compare apples to oranges.

If you care that much about the school imparting your particular values, then PS is not for you. But I think it could be a good option for many families. Contrary to many frum people's beliefs, all public schools are not cesspools of inappropriate behavior and material.

As far as Jews having to live in certain communities for a critical mass, isn't that what we already do?

amother

Wed, Sep 09 2020, 1:39 pm

amother [ Green ] wrote:

If you care that much about the school imparting your particular values, then PS is not for you. But I think it could be a good option for many families.

Let's be real: the vast, vast majority of orthodox Jews do care deeply about the values that their kids are going to learn in school. Put another way -- why wouldn't anyone worry about the values that their kids might be taught in public school?

That being said, public school could still be a viable option. Is it worth $15k/kid/yr to not subject your kids to public school values? Maybe, maybe not.

Quote:

Contrary to many frum people's beliefs, all public schools are not cesspools of inappropriate behavior and material.

They're not "cesspools," but there are is certainly more drugs, alcohol, and s*x at even a "good" UMC public school than a orthodox school. Plenty of UMC public school kids are good kids and don't get into trouble; and plenty do. Again, is it worth $15-20k/yr for HS to lessen the possibility? Who knows.

SacN

Wed, Sep 09 2020, 2:22 pm

I didn't grow up frum and now live in Israel, so I have no skin in this game.

However, having gone to a good suburban public school, I can definitely affirm that the education was excellent and the opportunities higher than in the local Jewish schools.

Where I grew up, there is one orthodox day school that's pretty middle of the road, and more right wing frum high schools. By and large, many of the MO parents send their ninth graders to public school rather than succumb to the Bais Yaakov hashkafa that isn't for them. It's a good suburban school with a huge Jewish presence. Jewish after school clubs, learning groups, etc. Many Jews in the school aren't orthodox, but there's a solid group that is.

Most of the day school kids who go there don't stay frum. It's just too hard. They feel strongly Jewish, maybe they even appreciate their Jewish education and love shabbat as a cultural phenomenon, but they are much closer to Israeli masorti than dati.

I think sending to private school is still a choice. If it's too expensive for us as a community, we need to find ways to increase the funding through other means. Government grants, nonprofit organizations, fundraising, sponsorship programs, etc. It's hard to resist, but what we don't need to do is whine about the costs of the privilege of sending your kids to private school.

amother

Vermilion

Wed, Sep 09 2020, 2:24 pm

amother [ Emerald ] wrote:

Have you seen what they teach in public schools? My brother went to one because the local yeshivas weren't a fit for him. I can tell you, it's not pretty. I wouldn't send my kid to public school even if I weren't Jewish. You have no control over who the teachers are, what is taught or what goes on in the classroom. At least as a yeshiva tuition-paying parent I have say in what and how and who is teaching my kids. Especially in the current age, I always think about how if I weren't sending my kids to yeshiva, I'd be sending them to Catholic school just to get away from public school.

What is taught in the public school that is so terrible?

amother

Emerald

Wed, Sep 09 2020, 11:04 pm

amother [ Green ] wrote:

If they didnt have air conditioning, wouldn't that be a good thing re covid? Isn't the argument that covid spreads through air conditioning? In a county of nearly 1 million people, there have been consistently 30ish cases diagnosed every day for months. If you can't open schools there, where can you open? The Jewish schools didn't make huge improvements. Mainly more plexiglass, but the public schools here have a huge amount of money. Spending per a student in NJ is one of the highest in the nation, coming in at $20,000 per student per year. That's about the same as yeshiva tuition. And that's per student so thats actually more than a yeshiva since many parents don't pay the actual $20,000. If public schools allocated the money towards the kids instead of the cushy pension and Cadillac health benefits offered to the teachers and admin, maybe they'd actually be able to serve their purpose of educating.

We don't do that. Jews do tend to live in groups but there are many orthodox jews who live out of town. I grew up in a second tierish sized Jewish community (Boca, Atlanta, Cleveland type) and even if all of the kids who were in the modern orthodox and yeshivahs schools transferred into the public schools, you'd still only be looking at maybe 70 kids per grade in a grade of 600. Nowhere near the type of numbers you would need to make your way of life the "norm" in the public school. Not to mention the type of criticism and difficult situations my brother was put in during his time at public school. And this was a highly rated public school in a very wealthy area.