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-> Parenting our children
-> Teenagers and Older children
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amother
Indigo
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 Wed, Mar 03 2021, 11:56 am
These are all wonderful points about being a good mother. And a thoughtful post expressing that would be very appropriate on many threads.
Howeer, although someone may not be a good mother as you describe, they don't need to be bashed for it. You may INTERNALLY take the child's side, but educating the mother in a way she can hear will presumably be more beneficial for the child, who likely won't get to hear all of the anonymous women defending her until many years later, if at all.
The point of this thread was not to say that "OP is always right" (she isn't) but to point out that we should always assume OP to be a human being who does want to do the right thing, even if she's pretty far off the right track for now. And that the way we speak to her should be with that in mind, speaking to her with the sensitivity and respect due an adult who came here and opened up to others.
I think the most basic dignity we can accord to others is a belief that they can grow and improve. Writing people off and bashing them is extremely hurtful, and counterproductive if you truly want the underdog to have a better life.
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amother
Mint
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Wed, Mar 03 2021, 12:07 pm
| amother [ Indigo ] wrote: | These are all wonderful points about being a good mother. And a thoughtful post expressing that would be very appropriate on many threads.
Howeer, although someone may not be a good mother as you describe, they don't need to be bashed for it. You may INTERNALLY take the child's side, but educating the mother in a way she can hear will presumably be more beneficial for the child, who likely won't get to hear all of the anonymous women defending her until many years later, if at all.
The point of this thread was not to say that "OP is always right" (she isn't) but to point out that we should always assume OP to be a human being who does want to do the right thing, even if she's pretty far off the right track for now. And that the way we speak to her should be with that in mind, speaking to her with the sensitivity and respect due an adult who came here and opened up to others.
I think the most basic dignity we can accord to others is a belief that they can grow and improve. Writing people off and bashing them is extremely hurtful, and counterproductive if you truly want the underdog to have a better life. |
In some situations, when people hear abusive mothers kindly, they take it as a form of validation of their parenting method.
My own mother used to do this all the time. She would vent to her friends, and then come back and justify the way she treated us, which was pretty horrible.
That's why I'd rather not say something at all on such threads. I feel bad bashing. And I can't enable such behavior and give attention to it.
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amother
Mint
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Wed, Mar 03 2021, 12:08 pm
| amother [ Papaya ] wrote: | It's not about me or how old someone is. It's about the mother's attitude towards her child. Is she working with the child or against the child? Is she letting her frustrations out on the child? How does she see her child as a person?
If you think your child is incredibly selfish, she will feel it whether or not you say it to her face. Because it's in your mindset and attitude.
Some people are open to changing their attitude to the benefit of their families. Some aren't because they don't see what's wrong with having a negative attitude towards their own child. It's these mothers when they are dismissive and self-centered, they will get comments. I will always take the child's side in such a situation. I know what it feels like to be that child. As do dozens of other posters here.
It's a simple question every parent can ask themselves: Are you part of the problem or part of the solution? Don't answer right away. |
This.
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amother
Indigo
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Wed, Mar 03 2021, 12:15 pm
| amother [ Mint ] wrote: | In some situations, when people hear abusive mothers kindly, they take it as a form of validation of their parenting method.
My own mother used to do this all the time. She would vent to her friends, and then come back and justify the way she treated us, which was pretty horrible.
That's why I'd rather not say something at all on such threads. I feel bad bashing. And I can't enable such behavior and give attention to it. |
Um, no. You can kindly tell someone that they are wrong.
Most parents need to educate their children. They need to tell them to do things differently. But there is a kind way to do so and an unkind way to do so.
Your post assumes that all abusive mothers (which you have no proof OP is or isn't) are malicious.
Try, "I know you have your daughter's best interest in mind, but I think that..." or "You might not see it this way, but as a daughter I have sometimes felt that..." or "It's true that her behavior looks selfish, but..." or "Even though you might be right, as the one reaching out for help here, YOU are the one who has the ability to change things for the better, so..."
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amother
Mint
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Wed, Mar 03 2021, 12:21 pm
| amother [ Indigo ] wrote: | Um, no. You can kindly tell someone that they are wrong.
Most parents need to educate their children. They need to tell them to do things differently. But there is a kind way to do so and an unkind way to do so.
Your post assumes that all abusive mothers (which you have no proof OP is or isn't) are malicious.
Try, "I know you have your daughter's best interest in mind, but I think that..." or "You might not see it this way, but as a daughter I have sometimes felt that..." or "It's true that her behavior looks selfish, but..." or "Even though you might be right, as the one reaching out for help here, YOU are the one who has the ability to change things for the better, so..." |
you obviously didn't grow up the way I did. Trust me when I say, my mother never had my own best interests in mind. Only hers. And she was always right, there was no need for change.
So when someone starts a thread saying how selfish her daughter is, I'm going to guess there's a chance she's like my mother. And I'm not going to enable someone like her, or give her attention.
So I don't post there.
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amother
Papaya
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Wed, Mar 03 2021, 12:23 pm
Yes and no.
I'm very much for speaking nicely and giving the benefit of the doubt.
When an OP raises red flags in her post, most likely she is unable to hear anything except what fits into her image of herself. Subsequent comments and posts are pretty much for others who are listening and may be open to change. Or for the other daughters out there who were scapegoated or taken advantage of by their mothers.
If you survived 20 years in a jungle fending for yourself you know every crack of a twig or sound of a falling leaf. If you have accidentally stepped into the jungle, you will miss many sounds and instincts that someone more experienced will know automatically. You may not even know that you are in the jungle before you get lost in there.
It is the same kind of thing. An OP will be dropping hints or raising red flags or have a certain tone. If you haven't been trained to pick up on it, you won't get it, unless you are naturally sensitive to it perhaps.
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amother
Indigo
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Wed, Mar 03 2021, 12:25 pm
Additionally, this is a message board, meaning that a lot of people read the same conversation and it can be reread even years down the line.
Even if your message doesn't speak to OP, if the message is said kindly, it may help another mother who finds herself in a similar situation, even if she doesn't have the courage to post about it.
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amother
Indigo
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Wed, Mar 03 2021, 12:41 pm
| amother [ Papaya ] wrote: | Yes and no.
I'm very much for speaking nicely and giving the benefit of the doubt.
When an OP raises red flags in her post, most likely she is unable to hear anything except what fits into her image of herself. Subsequent comments and posts are pretty much for others who are listening and may be open to change. Or for the other daughters out there who were scapegoated or taken advantage of by their mothers.
If you survived 20 years in a jungle fending for yourself you know every crack of a twig or sound of a falling leaf. If you have accidentally stepped into the jungle, you will miss many sounds and instincts that someone more experienced will know automatically. You may not even know that you are in the jungle before you get lost in there.
It is the same kind of thing. An OP will be dropping hints or raising red flags or have a certain tone. If you haven't been trained to pick up on it, you won't get it, unless you are naturally sensitive to it perhaps. |
You may also be always assuming the worst, even when it's not.
Someone who was in a car crash may always panic when a driver hits the brakes, even when it's just a red light. She might start screaming when she hears a crash, even if it was just a glass falling on the counter. She may overreact when her car gets scraped in a parking lot.
You might also be making assumptions based on your experience, which might be an overreaction. Yes, in your case the word "selfish" may have accompanied a host of aberrant behaviors - but not necessarily is that so in every situation.
Also, how do you know that your mother would not have ever changed, if she had been taught to see things in a different light? How do you know that a post on imamother might not have convinced her to reach out for IRL help or to make a decision to change?
If you want to make a thread defending the daughters, why not make a spinoff? If the mother is reaching out, let's try to help. Writing people off is IMHO abusive.
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amother
Papaya
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Wed, Mar 03 2021, 12:49 pm
| amother [ Indigo ] wrote: | You may also be always assuming the worst, even when it's not.
Someone who was in a car crash may always panic when a driver hits the brakes, even when it's just a red light. She might start screaming when she hears a crash, even if it was just a glass falling on the counter. She may overreact when her car gets scraped in a parking lot.
You might also be making assumptions based on your experience, which might be an overreaction. Yes, in your case the word "selfish" may have accompanied a host of aberrant behaviors - but not necessarily is that so in every situation.
Also, how do you know that your mother would not have ever changed, if she had been taught to see things in a different light? How do you know that a post on imamother might not have convinced her to reach out for IRL help or to make a decision to change?
If you want to make a thread defending the daughters, why not make a spinoff? If the mother is reaching out, let's try to help. Writing people off is IMHO abusive. |
I know because it's not about projection or flashbacks. I'm not assuming. There are set patterns with accompanying red flags.
Just like you trust your instincts not to enter an abusive relationship because the evidence is too great. Well, not everyone does. Some give the benefit if the doubt and end up in a terrible situation.
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Zehava
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Wed, Mar 03 2021, 1:11 pm
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In all my years on ima I’ve never been wrong about an op
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amother
Blush
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Wed, Mar 03 2021, 1:28 pm
| amother [ Indigo ] wrote: |
Also, how do you know that your mother would not have ever changed, if she had been taught to see things in a different light? How do you know that a post on imamother might not have convinced her to reach out for IRL help or to make a decision to change? |
They look at themselves like victims. They never change. The only thing left to do is to protest the behavior and make the people around aware so they don't enable them.
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amother
Indigo
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Wed, Mar 03 2021, 1:45 pm
| amother [ Blush ] wrote: | | They look at themselves like victims. They never change. The only thing left to do is to protest the behavior and make the people around aware so they don't enable them. |
They may HAVE never changed, but how can you prophesize that any given person WILL NEVER change?
People with borderline personality disorder have mellowed as they aged.
Addicts, even decades-long, have become sober and changed.
Even on imamother people share that their abusive husbands have changed.
Arabs who hated Jews have changed and converted to Orthodox Judaism.
A self-proclaimed hater of intellectuals, a known ignoramus, who said he will never change - became Rabbi Akiva.
A hedonistic and handsome highwayman, with no higher aspirations - became Resh Lakish.
A baby who astrologers could tell was destined to become a thief - became R' Nachman.
Hashem created human beings with a constant possibility of teshuvah. Someone's past record of bad behavior, or even predictions by an ACTUAL astrologer with a history of accuracy, is not a guarantee for the future.
Maybe I personally cannot be the agent of change for any given person. Maybe I cannot inspire a specific diehard playboy to consider keeping more mitzvos. Maybe I cannot be the impetus for getting certain posters to consider viewing others more positively.
But I sure will try.
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amother
Wine
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Wed, Mar 03 2021, 1:46 pm
| Zehava wrote: | | In all my years on ima I’ve never been wrong about an op |
How do you know?
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amother
Blush
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Wed, Mar 03 2021, 1:48 pm
| amother [ Indigo ] wrote: | They may HAVE never changed, but how can you prophesize that any given person WILL NEVER change?
People with borderline personality disorder have mellowed as they aged.
Addicts, even decades-long, have become sober and changed.
Even on imamother people share that their abusive husbands have changed.
Arabs who hated Jews have changed and converted to Orthodox Judaism.
A self-proclaimed hater of intellectuals, a known ignoramus, who said he will never change - became Rabbi Akiva.
A hedonistic and handsome highwayman, with no higher aspirations - became Resh Lakish.
A baby who astrologers could tell was destined to become a thief - became R' Nachman.
Hashem created human beings with a constant possibility of teshuvah. Someone's past record of bad behavior, or even predictions by an ACTUAL astrologer with a history of accuracy, is not a guarantee for the future.
Maybe I personally cannot be the agent of change for any given person. Maybe I cannot inspire a specific diehard playboy to consider keeping more mitzvos. Maybe I cannot be the impetus for getting certain posters to consider viewing others more positively.
But I sure will try. |
It is nice that you are optimistic but the opposite is true.
Manipulative, abusive and narcissistic people do not mellow with age.
They get worse. If you have ever lived with it, you would know that.
Anyone who ever tells them anything they don't want to hear immediately goes on their bad list.
They don't listen to reason.
Wake up and do real research instead of quoting nice Torahs about Reb Akiva.
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amother
Indigo
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Wed, Mar 03 2021, 1:55 pm
| amother [ Blush ] wrote: | It is nice that you are optimistic but the opposite is true.
Manipulative, abusive and narcissistic people do not mellow with age.
They get worse. If you have ever lived with it, you would know that.
Anyone who ever tells them anything they don't want to hear immediately goes on their bad list.
They don't listen to reason.
Wake up and do real research instead of quoting nice Torahs about Reb Akiva. |
I most certainly did not say that EVERYONE improves with age. Please go back and reread. BPD actually DOES decline with age - https://www.verywellmind.com/w.....25211
I am not defending any specific manipulative or narcissistic person. I am not saying that you could or should have prevented any abuse you suffered. I am not saying that every person WILL do teshuvah.
What I am saying is that people CAN change. And if a person comes onto imamother and posts, I will offer her the courtesy of assuming that she DOES want to. And I feel that all of us should assume the same.
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amother
Blush
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Wed, Mar 03 2021, 1:55 pm
| amother [ Wine ] wrote: | | How do you know? |
Maybe as an example, in this particular situation the OP had given herself away as the OP of a similar kind of thread. Only this time she posted under her screen name.
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amother
Papaya
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Wed, Mar 03 2021, 2:12 pm
| amother [ Indigo ] wrote: | I most certainly did not say that EVERYONE improves with age. Please go back and reread. BPD actually DOES decline with age - https://www.verywellmind.com/w.....25211
I am not defending any specific manipulative or narcissistic person. I am not saying that you could or should have prevented any abuse you suffered. I am not saying that every person WILL do teshuvah.
What I am saying is that people CAN change. And if a person comes onto imamother and posts, I will offer her the courtesy of assuming that she DOES want to. And I feel that all of us should assume the same. |
That sounds so nice and wonderfluffy but I won't join you down there under the sand.
I don't need links, I have enough real life experience.
Kindness enables abuse, you won't catch me betraying the real victims that way.
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amother
Indigo
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Wed, Mar 03 2021, 2:13 pm
| Zehava wrote: | | In all my years on ima I’ve never been wrong about an op |
I would find a similar statement by a psychiatrist to be very suspect. It is not that easy to diagnose someone, and most professionals do so only after a pretty comprehensive intake and history, not from a few paragraphs typed online.
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amother
Indigo
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Wed, Mar 03 2021, 2:22 pm
| amother [ Papaya ] wrote: | That sounds so nice and wonderfluffy but I won't join you down there under the sand.
I don't need links, I have enough real life experience.
Kindness enables abuse, you won't catch me betraying the real victims that way. |
Do you have any source for that? I would be very curious to see a link proving that kindness makes abuse worse, and that nastiness stops abuse.
Perhaps in your case the ones who offered kindness were not offering kind criticism or suggestions. Kindness without any encouragement to change I agree will only enable abuse.
Absent any proof you provide, which I am very skeptical that you will find, I still hold that kindness has at least a chance of making even an abuser improve. And that nastiness is CERTAIN to hurt people.
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amother
Papaya
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Wed, Mar 03 2021, 2:32 pm
| amother [ Indigo ] wrote: | Do you have any source for that? I would be very curious to see a link proving that kindness makes abuse worse, and that nastiness stops abuse.
Perhaps in your case the ones who offered kindness were not offering kind criticism or suggestions. Kindness without any encouragement to change I agree will only enable abuse.
Absent any proof you provide, which I am very skeptical that you will find, I still hold that kindness has at least a chance of making even an abuser improve. And that nastiness is CERTAIN to hurt people. |
I'm telling you about common real life scenarios. What's with the links? Do you have a source for everyday events that happen in your life?
Do you not see that someone who has a victim mentality will feel their victimhood validated by kindness and empathy? It feeds into their personality disorder and brings out more of it on us. They use everything to reinforce their image of themselves. There is a major block between reality and their perception.
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