Judaism and a financial plan

Motek

Thu, Feb 21 2008, 5:29 pm

EstiS wrote:

yes but in today's day and age if all you do is make sure you have enough for that day and don't think about tomorow then you'll be in deep trouble at the end of the month when you have to pay your electricity, gas and other bills.

You say that because you are assuming that Hashem won't provide!

Listen, I'm not saying that I have the faith that R' Elozer Ha'modai describes, but I am taking his position in this post to say that talk of "balance" is nice and all, but not what he's saying.

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even making sure you just have enough for month to month, or fortnight to fortnight won't help you when you have to pay your rates at the end of the year, or any other yearly bills, and it won't help you when you need to make chasanas and other simchas.

again, that's because you're assuming Hashem won't provide if the person doesn't save up for it

roza

Thu, Feb 21 2008, 6:10 pm

Quote:

The Mechilta (a Medrash) says on Shemos 16:4-5, "And let the people go out and gather each day's portion [of manna] on its day. R' Elazar Ha'Modai said, 'This was stated so that a person shouldn't gather today for tomorrow's needs, unlike erev Shabbos ... ' "And it happened on the sixth day [Friday] and they prepared ..." From here we learn that a person should prepare for Shabbos on erev Shabbos.

Based on this, R' Elazar Ha'Modai said, 'Anyone who has enough food for today and asks, "What will I eat tomorrow," is lacking faith!

This is my take and contribution to the discussion:

The key words are in bold, only those who ask 'what will I eat tomorrow' are thus expressing their lack of faith. While those who have retirement plans and other financial plans don't aks this question. They believe that G-d will provide through the financial planing and other planing like getting a job. R. Elazar has no problem with planing, he has problem with people who do have what to eat today, meaning they see experience for themselves that Hashem provides and still ask the question, still have doubts.

The prohibition to collect for next day was in regards to manna, but now, as it's applicable to us- the problem is with questioning and doubting, not the collecting and planing.

In addition, on certain level, the natural order is more of the miracle.

Please let me know if you disagree with me and on what.

imala

Thu, Feb 21 2008, 6:25 pm

It says in Pirkei Avos, "Ayzehu chocham, haroeh es hanolad," which means that one needs to also look down the line and plan and act in a way that is prudent under 'normal' circumstances. In today's day and age, that means to expect to iy'h make simchos, maybe one will want to support kids in kollel, one will have to support themselves through retirement.... Of course anything could happen to the money that one has saved. Everything in the end is in Hashem's hand, but one has to put in appropriate hishtadlus to plan for their future.

If one kills oneself to work long hours to the point he can't be kovea itttim, spend time with family, is very stressed, in order that they should be able to put away money for the future, then perhaps they are putting in too much hishtadlus. If someone is constantly worrying what's gonna be, oy what's gonna be, I hear that shows a lack of emunah. But if b'h someone is able to put away money for the future, then I believe that is what Hashem wants us to do. Rabbi Avigdor Miller ZT"l, say the first law of the Torah is "Don't be a fool - use common sense."

Motek

Thu, Feb 21 2008, 8:11 pm

roza wrote:

The key words are in bold

I think you left out some of the key words. I think the key words are:

'Anyone who has enough food for today and asks, "What will I eat tomorrow," is lacking faith!

estis - yes, the part about balance was in response to that post

imala - how did people make simchos in the time of R' Elozor Ha'Modai? How did they live when they were old?

imala

Fri, Feb 22 2008, 11:52 am

I beleive you are misconstruing the intent of that chazal. perhaps the emphasis of that statement was meant to me "someone who QUESTIONS what will I have for tomorrow", but there is nothing wrong with putting in effort to try to ensure there is food for tomorrow -in fact that is praiseworthy.
Taking that chazal in the most literal sense suggests one should rely on a ness-miracle which is contrary to many other statements from Chazal. In addition Chazal say "he who works on erev shabbos will have food for shabbos". Similairly Yosef hatzadik saved mitzrayim and neighbohring countries from devastation by forced savings in the years of abundance so that there would be food in the years of hunger. (so taking this in the literal sense suggested above appears incorrect)

Motek

Tue, Feb 26 2008, 8:58 pm

imala wrote:

Taking that chazal in the most literal sense suggests one should rely on a ness-miracle

I don't see why.

Quote:

In addition Chazal say "he who works on erev shabbos will have food for shabbos".

On Friday, double manna fell for Friday and Shabbos. That's fine, to prepare for Shabbos Smile

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Similairly Yosef hatzadik saved mitzrayim and neighbohring countries from devastation by forced savings in the years of abundance so that there would be food in the years of hunger. (so taking this in the literal sense suggested above appears incorrect)

Two responses come to mind. One, the plan to prepare for the 7 lean years during the 7 years of famine was in Pharaoh's dreams and was a message from G-d. If G-d came to me and told me to prepare, I'm sure it wouldn't be a lack of faith on my part if I prepared!

Second, this was the land of Egypt and there is nothing, to my knowledge, about non-Jews having this kind of faith.

imala

Tue, Feb 26 2008, 10:04 pm

Working on erev shabbos so that one should have food to eat doesn't only apply to when the Jews were in the midbar. This is a concept that one has to think about the future and prepare for it according to teva - the way Hashem set up this world and based on one's madrega. It applies to the gashmius aspects - if I don't save money for retirement, (on my madrega - level), it would be foolish for me to think I will have money for my old age. Yes, I could win the lottery, but 'ayn somchim al nes." It also applies to ruchniyus - if I don't use my olam hazeh well, well there won't be much of an olam haba waiting...

When Pharoah had his dreams, they 'told' the future of something that was unexpected. Who knew that Mitzrayim would have 7 years of hunger? So based on that Yosef set up his plan. But Hashem already 'told' us that when we have simchos we'll have to pay for them, when we are old and not working anymore we'll have to pay for ourselves... I don't really see the difference. The difference I see is in the amount of hishtadlus that people put in, and the amount of worry that people have. That's where the bitachon comes in.

Motek

Thu, Feb 28 2008, 12:42 pm

sarahd wrote:

Who says they listened to R' Elazar?

I don't know if any did or not. The reason I wrote that was to respond to imala's:

Quote:

In today's day and age, that means to expect to iy'h make simchos, maybe one will want to support kids in kollel, one will have to support themselves through retirement....

People have always had to marry off children and have always wanted to support themselves in their old age.

roza

Sun, Mar 02 2008, 2:02 am

a few hundred years ago children would take care of the elders, also ppl didn't have such a long life span as they do today, so retirement and all the planning for it is a recent lifestyle change. Children can't support their parents, who are not capable to work anymore, for so long, they have their own children to support now.

Quote:

'Anyone who has enough food for today

Motek wrote:

R' Elozor Ha'Modai is not saying to rely on miracles. He's saying, if you have for today and worry about tomorrow, that shows a lack of faith.

That doesn't contradict making a keli either. You have for today, go to sleep, get up the next morning, make your keli for that day, have enough for that day etc.

I don't think that's what he means. Think about it.

What is your understanding of this line? Do you assume that ppl just opened a refrigerator or went to supermarket and got themselves some food for today? If you studied a bit of history and daily life in ancient civilizations, you would know how much labor, planning and effort went into just one loaf of bread, one piece of clothes, keeping oneself warm in winter etc.
I don't think any farmer, shepherd or trader would survive then without any efforts or planning for seasons (like preparing food and wood, clothes for winter), planing for years of trading and so on. One couldn't do it in one day.

Today it's more of financial planing (making money by providing goods and services, business dealings, financial stuff), so that you can buy all the food, housing and clothes, plus to pay for all the simchos, as someone mentioned. Just as much efforts as farmers of old, but a different way of getting food.

So the questions remains, how did you derive from this source that one shouldn't get ready for tomorrow. I mean, R' Elazar Ha'Modai knew how much it took for ppl to get some food - more then one day for sure.

Motek

Sun, Mar 02 2008, 3:26 pm

About how people supported themselves long ago - some were craftsman - tailors, cobblers, silversmiths, blacksmiths. Some had stores. Granted, in certain professions it is easier to stop working for the day and go home when you have enough for that day, than in other professions.

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So the questions remains, how did you derive from this source that one shouldn't get ready for tomorrow. I mean, R' Elazar Ha'Modai knew how much it took for ppl to get some food - more then one day for sure.

He doesn't say not to prepare for tomorrow. He says, if you have for today and worry about tomorrow, that shows a lack of faith.

I think it's easy to fool ourselves into thinking we are not worrying and that we are just being responsible.

poelmamosh

Sun, Mar 02 2008, 3:50 pm

I might be missing the point of this discussion entirely, but we are shluchim who raise all our funds - both for the shlichus programs, and my husband's salary, which covers our basic expenses. I did work for many years to cover the latter, but not now (for various reasons)
There are times when we are literally living day to day (or month to month, as you will). I don't think we are unique in this situation. BH, my dh and I are not stressed about finances (other things, maybe Wink

), but let me tell you - I talk to Hashem quite often and at length when things are tight and we have seen over and over again how everything gets covered, yes, miraculously! When you live it, it's quite an elevating experience.
Someone mentioned Shabbos expenses... actually it's a fascinating personal story, but definately OT. Maybe when I have time I'll start a thread.

Lechatchila Ariber

Sun, Mar 02 2008, 4:48 pm

Motek wrote:

He doesn't say not to prepare for tomorrow. He says, if you have for today and worry about tomorrow, that shows a lack of faith.

and you think he meant that literaly to be taken as only make sure you have enough for sunday and don't think about monday?

I think rather what he meant was have bitachon, period.
That if right now the future looks bleak and you are wondering how you are going to make that chassuna in 6 mths from now, have bitachon that Hashem will help you out.
doesn't mean that if you can you shouldn't start saving for a coming simcha