Why mustn't the Upsheren boy see women?

nchr

Wed, Jun 23 2021, 4:07 am

champion wrote:

This.
Also, the shock expressed here is mainly due to the way the ops relative executed their minhag. Be practical. If your minhag is that 3 year old babes cannot see woman that day, dont make him a party with woman and hide him upstairs. Thats just miscelebration.

I can't comment on OPs situation. We do not have older girls or women besides for the mother and grandmother and older married sisters. And if any of of are not clean (some have a minhag of only if actively on their periods) then they do not touch the boy. In the afternoon when cousins come to pick up pekelech it is only boys or very little girls and it's not a party as I explained before. I agree that OPs description of what happened sounds a little bizarre but that may be because I've never been exposed to it.

champion

Wed, Jun 23 2021, 4:10 am

nchr wrote:

So what do people with older girls do?

nchr

Wed, Jun 23 2021, 4:15 am

champion wrote:

So what do people with older girls do?

The older unmarried sisters do not touch the boy. That's it.

As I explained some believe it is only when someone has an active period and others if they have had a period before (and did not yet go to mikva). Fathers are not going to ask their daughters these private questions so they just tell daughters above a certain age that today we don't touch your brother. It's not a big deal. They likely go to school anyways for most of the day, come home and just don't touch their brother. The next morning they can give him a pat on his cheek and tell him how sweet he looks with his peyos.

watergirl

Wed, Jun 23 2021, 4:50 am

I tried to clean this thread up while still allowing for discussion and questions. Some rude comments that received excellent replies (thank you nchr, you are so patient in this thread!) are left because nchr spent so much time explaining, I did not want to remove her words.

Everyone needs to approach topics like this with an open mind and realize that what one has learned to be halacha may be minhag and the other way around.

If you are asking questions here to learn, please do so respectfully or better yet, start a new thread is the respectfully learning forum.

I will reopen this thread but I will lock if if it spins out of control again.

amother

Pink

Wed, Jun 23 2021, 5:03 am

I just want to say that most people do not have this minhag. Nchr is being very patient but from her posts, she does seem to come from a family that upholds more extreme Minhagim.
I have never ever ever heard of a mother not touching the boy. From the people I know that have this minhag, the mother, sisters, grandmothers are fine. It's just seeing other women who might be on the period.
Also if I remember correctly this has a kabbalistic source, although I personally don't know it.
Again, most Chassidish people do not have this Minhag, and also keeping the boy upstairs is just bizzare, I think someone may have had OCD and it has nothing to do with this Minhag.

amother

Mayflower

Wed, Jun 23 2021, 5:12 am

amother [ Pink ] wrote:

This. She did post only some people do this with variation and only some take the boy to the mikvah.

amother

Celeste

Wed, Jun 23 2021, 5:16 am

watergirl wrote:

Thank you watergirl

watergirl

Wed, Jun 23 2021, 5:20 am

amother [ Pink ] wrote:

It could also be that the boy in OP's situation was shy or scared or just being a three year old and refused to come downstairs, or he wanted his mother so he stayed with her, or many other explanations. It could be that someone gave her the wrong answer if she asked at the simcha why the child was upstairs... many other options are possible.

The only issue I have is when someone conflates minhag with halacha and does not realize that while the minhag is halacha for HER, it is still minhag and therefor not halacha for others. IE, the amother on page one who thinks all women who are niddah are not allowed to look at a sefer torah. But, thats the best part of this site - we all learn from each other. If that is all she was taught, and she was taught it as halacha, of course she would assume any women who DOES look at a sefer torah when niddah is wrong to do so. We need to learn from each other here and we often do. So I hope that member learned something new also (ie what she holds as halacha is actually minhag and most other groups do not hold that way).

amother

Brown

Wed, Jun 23 2021, 6:22 am

amother [ Smokey ] wrote:

She’s not pure in the sense that she can’t be intimate with her husband. I. E. As it relates to s-xuality. There’s nothing inherently impure about being nidah.

That is actually not strictly true. Part of the reason for it, is that the unfertilized egg is considered sort of a miscarriage and the woman is considered being like tamei lmeis (not fully, but similar kind of tumah)

amother

Pear

Wed, Jun 23 2021, 6:37 am

From halachapedia
Shaarei Dura (Niddah no. 18) writes that a niddah shouldn't go into a shul. The Hagahot Maimoniyot (Tefillah 4:3) comments that the minhag was that a niddah wouldn't go into a shul. The Trumat Hadeshen (pesakim 132) permitted a niddah to go into shul on Yamim Noraim since otherwise they would feel bad not going to shul when everyone else is going. However, the Agur (no. 1388) writes that the minhag was that a niddah would go in a shul but just not look at the sefer torah when it is opened. The above discussion is all quoted in the Darkei Moshe YD 195:5. The Rama OC 88:1 quotes the dispute and concludes that the minhag was that a niddah shouldn't go into a shul. The Mishna Brurah 88:7 writes that the minhag today is to go into a shul but just not to look at the sefer torah when it is open.
The Pitchei Teshuva YD 195:19 cites the Chamudei Daniel as saying that a niddah shouldn't go to a cemetery to daven. The Mishna Brurah 88:7 writes that a niddah shouldn't go to a cemetery. Shiurei Shevet Halevi 195 writes that a niddah shouldn't go to the cemetery because of a concern of mystical reason of tumah. However, it is permitted for her to go and stand 4 amot from the grave.
Shaarei Dura (no. 18) forbids niddot from reciting God's name. Darkei Moshe (195:5) also concludes likewise. Accordingly, Rama (Orach Chaim 88:1) writes that the custom is that a niddah is not to pray. See however, Bet Yosef (88:1), Magen Avraham (88:2), Pri Chadash (88:1), Maaseh Rav (no. 58), and Mishna Brurah (88:7) all rule that women are obligated in the recital of all blessings. See also Responsa Tzitz Eliezer (vol. 10, no. 8) who writes that the current day Bais Yaakov seminaries all do not follow the Rama's ruling.

As they say, ask your rabbi

simba

Wed, Jun 23 2021, 6:43 am

amother [ Brown ] wrote:

Everyone is Tamei Meis nowadays. There is no real Tumah and Tahara.
All men forsure.
We all will need some sort of Tevila before going into the Beijing HaMikdash.

nchr

Wed, Jun 23 2021, 6:46 am

amother [ Crocus ] wrote:

Yes. I wonder if they ask all the men if they went to the mikva that morning.
(I'm guessing in these circles many of the men do go to mikva every morning. Still, my point stands).

I see my response to this was accidentally removed.

This minhag comes from seforim its not some made up thing. It specifically mentions this and the kav hayusher does not mention fathers going to the mikvah.

Regardless, yes, in these communities men use the mikvah and some of us also take the boy to the mikvah too on that day on his way to cheder so I guess that answers the question for you since the father would be going in together with his son.

amother

Wed, Jun 23 2021, 6:53 am

Just to clarify, the mom had no idea about this minhag. She was only told on the day.

One set of parents had already driven down for many hours. So there was no option of postponing it.

But I can't imagine doing this to my own son.

My own son will be turning 3 in a few weeks. Were going to be following my parents minhag and not my husband's (my parents allowed the boy to see women)

It's too foreign to me.

Thank you for all the insightful replies. And thank you Watergirl for putting time and energy into this thread.

4pom

Wed, Jun 23 2021, 7:02 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Poor sister/ sil.
Hope communication improves with Dad. Or perhaps it was his parents insisting.

Kids are resilient and all deal with things differently. Hopefully everyone was calm. And it was a happy time for him. Sure they will make it up to him somehow. Mazal tov.

farm

Wed, Jun 23 2021, 9:34 pm

nchr wrote:

Seems even more strange if the minhag is only if actively on their period- so if the women is in her 7 nekiyim, that’s ok for upsherin boy in some circles? Now tell me with a straight face that this makes the slightest bit of sense halachically and isn’t a superstitious (other types of religion) bleeding woman thing?

nchr

Thu, Jun 24 2021, 8:55 am

farm wrote:

How is something that is mentioned specifically that way in seforim superstitious. I don't understand what you're asking. Also some people hold only if actively on her period and others hold even if not on her period and just not clean. These are minhugim and they are not superstitious.

Also, I'm not a posek here that knows seforim inside out or even on a basic level. I'm repeating things that I had heard from when I asked a shaila in regard to something related so I can't explain why this is different than something else because I don't have the ability to do that. I'm just explaining what I have heard/been told.

You realize during the time of the beis hamikdash women being clean or not affected much more than it does today (same for men but they don't get periods so not relevant here).

This isn't superstition.

farm

Thu, Jun 24 2021, 9:56 am

nchr wrote:

You realize during the time of the beis hamikdash women being clean had nothing to do if they were bleeding or not. That’s what doesn’t make sense- that she can’t touch the boy if she has a flow but could touch if her flow ends but she hasn’t been to the Mikva yet. There is no halachik significance to this, she has the same halachik status either scenario.

SwissAlps

Thu, Jun 24 2021, 10:34 am

Disclaimer: I never heard about this minhag until imamother.

Maybe the reason why a woman on her period would be different than any other tumah nowadays is because while a woman is on her period she is actively discharging the tumah as opposed to any other kind of tumah. Would also explain why during the period is different than Shiva nikiim.

Again, this is my theory. I have no proof that this is the reason.