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Forum
-> Relationships
-> Manners & Etiquette
Writergirl
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 Fri, Jul 02 2021, 6:58 pm
| imorethanamother wrote: | I'm embarrassed. I wrote under my screen name only so that if people want to yell at me for being ridiculous, they have the right address, lol.
I don't have a beautiful attitude. Like everyone else, I work and work on it. Sometimes I get resentful, and then Hashem sends me reminders that my house doesn't really belong to me. (Helloooo insect infestation!)
But that bracha is amazing, and I'll take it!!! Thank you!!! I need all the help I can get! I wish I was better at this. I wish I was Henny! |
It was just so refreshing to read. I've also had situations when Hashem reminded me Who really owns everything I have....
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amother
OP
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Fri, Jul 02 2021, 8:17 pm
| amother [ Lotus ] wrote: | | Why would anyone assume that if you are home? You are using your own utilities? I would never ask to stay anywhere for 3 weeks, I’m just curious as to how you determine your guests cost you so much? |
Uh no. I got asked if I can lend out my house for 3 weeks while we were away in the summer but don't worry, we will keep the kids out of the master bedroom. 
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amother
OP
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Fri, Jul 02 2021, 8:21 pm
| imorethanamother wrote: | Why is it crazy to ask to host for the "entire yom tov"? Did you want them to leave in the middle of the first night of Pesach?
Generally, people who are asking are stuck. Their parents don't have enough rooms. Baruch Hashem, with families approaching 12 kids or more (that post is hilarious), people need places to stay to be together with other families.
If you can't do it, don't do it. But they're not asking you to MAKE them yom tov, they're asking for sleeping space so they can be near their own relatives. I don't think that's an awful thing. |
No not in the middle of the first night but maybe after the first days?
Asking me a couple months in advance means I have to make a commitment to their plans and maybe I want to have my own guests.
And even if I don't want to host my own guests, I would never ever ask someone to host my family for 12 days in the middle of their space for something non urgent.
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amother
DarkGreen
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Sat, Jul 03 2021, 10:59 pm
| amother [ Cappuccino ] wrote: | | If someone has a hard time saying no, that's their problem. There are people who are actually willing to give when asked, and people in need aren't mind readers. Why not allow open communication? |
This isn’t always people “in need” unless you count someone going on. A vacation and not wanting to pay for lodging a need.
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southernbubby
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Sat, Jul 03 2021, 11:34 pm
| imorethanamother wrote: | | It happens. Sometimes they don't even realize things break. But by and large, things break around the house all the time. Did your daughter tell them? I find that when I point this out, people are horrified and more than willing to pay for any damages. People are generally good. |
No, she didn't say anything but hosting when the host is there is different than giving someone a free place to live with utilities included for several weeks when the host is not there. I also don't feel comfortable having people in my house for extended periods especially while I am not home.
I suppose that in any guest situation, it's best to be up front about what you want guests to pay for or provide.
There also has to be a delineation between providing a temporary place to stay and acquiring a long term house mate who can claim squatters' rights if they are there long enough. Then there is the guests that we invite because they are our friends and we want to enjoy them. I am told that the mitzvah of hachnassas orchim is to provide housing to someone who needs it.
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amother
Forestgreen
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Sat, Jul 03 2021, 11:42 pm
I used to give away my apt all the time for family & friends as a chessed, when I went away for yom tov, till I learned to stop & say no.
I rented apt for myself for yom tov in diff neighborhood for money, packed everything up till last tissue, besides for food & clothes, prepared my house for the guests, stayed after yom tov to wash up the apt I rented, and gave it back cleaner than I got it, only to get stuck to the floors as I entered my own apt. ( which I gave to a family member with a bunch of wild kids for free). Next time they asked I said no.
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amother
Forestgreen
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Sun, Jul 04 2021, 12:09 am
Another time relatives from abroad wanted to stay by us for a week. 3 adults & 4 children under age 5. I felt a little indebted as one of them, I stayed by some nights in their bsmnt apt & ate few meals there, when I was in their country. Mostly I was traveling to diff neighborhoods though.
I housed them, catered 3 meals a day for them, went shopping with them, babysat their kids, including a newborn with no bottle when they went out, cleaned after the chaos/mess/tornado they made, as these little kids had no occupation all week, entertained them, as their mom was a kimp, and wanted to sleep/rest etc. Was also hosting all my family members to come see the relatives, instead of them inviting them out for a meal or taking them out a little.
They had such good accomodations that they sent another couple with 2 kids under two for a week for same set up. Sibling of theirs.
Btw in my apt, no bsmnt or private area, and my home is small.
All was ok, till half a year later they referred another cousin, to us. Problem was, they didn't even ask us. Just arranged their travels, in a very busy timing, and assuming their accomodations. They called me from airport to just confirm, which was never originally arranged for. Also a family with young kids.
I said NO. They were mad at me, and guilt tripped me for making their trip miserable.
The second couple was also upset, that we didn't take them anywhere to browse the land on any excursions.
During week their toddler was fevering & last day when felt better and wanted to go out, I took them with car service to Manhattan to get on ferry to Ellis island but the man didn't want to see the pritzus & we made about face and returned home. Then they were upset that I didn't take them anywhere. Mind you, every day I was taking them around town to shop as they didn't know their way around, and then expected to have a full meal ready by lunchtime as the the main meal, as they were used to.
Oh I forgot, the last night the first set was by me, there was a family wedding as well, they left to wedding, and I stayed behind to cook them food to take along on the plane,. I only got to wedding very late. I had taken them to grocery to buy stuff for their flight before wedding, but they only took packs of candies, to take back to their family as per request.
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amother
Cappuccino
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Sun, Jul 04 2021, 12:45 am
| amother [ DarkGreen ] wrote: | | This isn’t always people “in need” unless you count someone going on. A vacation and not wanting to pay for lodging a need. |
It can be, depending on the circumstance.
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amother
Hibiscus
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Sun, Jul 04 2021, 1:00 am
| amother [ Forestgreen ] wrote: | Another time relatives from abroad wanted to stay by us for a week. 3 adults & 4 children under age 5. I felt a little indebted as one of them, I stayed by some nights in their bsmnt apt & ate few meals there, when I was in their country. Mostly I was traveling to diff neighborhoods though.
I housed them, catered 3 meals a day for them, went shopping with them, babysat their kids, including a newborn with no bottle when they went out, cleaned after the chaos/mess/tornado they made, as these little kids had no occupation all week, entertained them, as their mom was a kimp, and wanted to sleep/rest etc. Was also hosting all my family members to come see the relatives, instead of them inviting them out for a meal or taking them out a little.
They had such good accomodations that they sent another couple with 2 kids under two for a week for same set up. Sibling of theirs.
Btw in my apt, no bsmnt or private area, and my home is small.
All was ok, till half a year later they referred another cousin, to us. Problem was, they didn't even ask us. Just arranged their travels, in a very busy timing, and assuming their accomodations. They called me from airport to just confirm, which was never originally arranged for. Also a family with young kids.
I said NO. They were mad at me, and guilt tripped me for making their trip miserable.
The second couple was also upset, that we didn't take them anywhere to browse the land on any excursions.
During week their toddler was fevering & last day when felt better and wanted to go out, I took them with car service to Manhattan to get on ferry to Ellis island but the man didn't want to see the pritzus & we made about face and returned home. Then they were upset that I didn't take them anywhere. Mind you, every day I was taking them around town to shop as they didn't know their way around, and then expected to have a full meal ready by lunchtime as the the main meal, as they were used to.
Oh I forgot, the last night the first set was by me, there was a family wedding as well, they left to wedding, and I stayed behind to cook them food to take along on the plane,. I only got to wedding very late. I had taken them to grocery to buy stuff for their flight before wedding, but they only took packs of candies, to take back to their family as per request. |
Wow. Just wow. The chutzpah of some people... I'm not sure which is worse, the entitlement, the expectations, the actions. I really wonder how people feel entitled to anything from anyone else, cousin, siblings, parents or anyone.
On another note, I don't let anyone but immediate family stay in my house, ever since I let our neighbors family stay over years ago when we went away, no small kids, and our locked bedroom was broken into. The lock was actually broken when we came home. I felt extremely violated, but more than that realized that people will not necessarily treat my home and privacy with respect as I eoukd in theirs. Since then, I only host when we are home, and people we know and trust.
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shaqued_almond
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Sun, Jul 04 2021, 1:31 am
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We used to host a lot before we had kids, mostly to strangers. Some experiences were good, others less so. We've had three times where people stayed with us over three weeks and every time it got uncomfortable for different reasons. The last time we had a stranger sleep in our house was a few years ago. Someone was saying that there was a woman who needed a place to stay for shabbat otherwise she'd need to be in her car. Long story short, she stayed for a week, turns out she had schizophrenia but was in denial about it. She couldn't focus her thoughts (which meant she didn't run any errands she said she wanted to do and I had to rearrange my day to watch her) she also refused to take medication. Her goal was originally to find a foster family for her kids who were housed in a Jewish orphanage nearby but she couldn't even figure out who to speak to etc. Afterwards we started to inquire about guests more. Some people will just refer people without checking into them. There should be some sort of etiquette. I feel bad because when I was younger and becoming religious, people hosting me was a big help and I want to give back but with little kids I can't really do it.
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imorethanamother
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Sun, Jul 04 2021, 1:36 am
| amother [ OP ] wrote: | No not in the middle of the first night but maybe after the first days?
Asking me a couple months in advance means I have to make a commitment to their plans and maybe I want to have my own guests.
And even if I don't want to host my own guests, I would never ever ask someone to host my family for 12 days in the middle of their space for something non urgent. |
Wait until you’re a grandmother and you want to host your married kids for a yom tov. Then you’ll see.
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imasinger
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Sun, Jul 04 2021, 1:42 am
I love helping when I can, but still think that everyone should practice being able to say, "I'm so sorry, I can't help you out, but wish you tons of luck in finding what you're looking for."
Limits are good, and there's nothing wrong with saying no.
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amother
DarkGreen
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Sun, Jul 04 2021, 1:58 am
| amother [ Cappuccino ] wrote: | | It can be, depending on the circumstance. |
Idk, hard for me to understand why going on a trip for pleasure that necessitates staying in someone’s home (in some cases a stranger) for an extended period of time is a necessity. Going away for mental health, sure, but there’s other ways to do it.
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amother
Seafoam
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Sun, Jul 04 2021, 2:02 am
I don't have this issue. It's very community dependent. I think it happens more in places where people have very large families without a lot of living space.
I used to live in a yeshuv where this was more common. I rarely gave out my house to strangers, and never if I was not home. I also never asked for someone else's house for my guests. Some people hosted constantly and also asked others to host guests for them a lot. That's fine, if it's reciprocal.
In general this whole hachnassos orchim has led to an attitude of entitlement by some. My jaw dropped reading about stories above of strangers who came and expected cooked food (I mean seriously??) and guided tours (that's insane). That's taking horrendous advantage.
I host family whenever I can. Strangers - I would host if there was an emergency etc. I would not host just because my neighbor feels like having guests and she doesn't have enough sleeping room for everyone she wants to invite.
Hosting for me is a lot of work even without cooking. I need to really clean the house, as I feel uncomfortable hosting in our usual more relaxed state. That's hours of work. Then stripping the linen, making beds, moving around a child or two if needed. Then the whole time they are here, I have no privacy.
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heidi
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Sun, Jul 04 2021, 2:18 am
I'm happy to host family or friends of friends for a shabbat simcha. Maximum till Sunday if they're having a party on motzai shabbat. That's it. I don't want people in my house during the week. I grew up in a major tourist area and that's how my parents did it also.
During the week there are hotels.
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amother
Mint
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Sun, Jul 04 2021, 5:31 am
We were once asked by a family to stay in our apartment so the wife could work, she had set up some kind of summer camp in our neighborhood.
My husband wanted to say yes and not ask for money, since they were obviously tight.
Not only did they stay for two weeks (we were away) and not offer to pay a penny for electricity or anything else, the wife write a little note next to my computer saying she had taken my speakers to use for her camp and couldn't figure out how to put them back in, sorry! No, she did not ask permission for that.
I put my foot down after that, and only arranged with a signed contract and an agreed payment for utilities, and the next time we lent it out it went smoothly. The idea is to be able to do chesed happily, which I realized I couldn't do if I feel swindled after. Now I can.
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amother
Forestgreen
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Sun, Jul 04 2021, 5:39 am
I had a relative as a guest for shabbos, who wanted to stay for Sunday. On sunday, she used my ingredients & kitchen/gear to cook & send a supper to her kimp friend in my town.
She also deleted the numbers from my caller iD without asking me, and took along food from my fridge when she left, when I wasn't there & didn't ask for permission. She just let me know after the fact, figuring that no one will eat it in my house.
P.S. I was financially strapped.
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southernbubby
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Sun, Jul 04 2021, 7:39 am
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I agree with stating expectations up front which doesn't work if the guest is mentally ill. Hosting because people need to be in the neighborhood for a simcha is the ideal situation but I feel the need to make it clear when I can or cannot babysit. For example, if you are my guest and you are eating across the street, you can leave the sleeping children in my house but in the morning, you cannot sleep in if the kids are awake and need their morning routine started. I don't want to be responsible for helping them with breakfast and reminding them to visit the bathroom. I don't want to deal with their squabbles. I only do the morning routine for my own grandchildren so that my kids can sleep in.
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sushilover
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Sun, Jul 04 2021, 8:15 am
I'll repeat what I said in the last thread: as long as you ask politely and accept a no, there is NOTHING wrong with asking for a favor.
I have a basement and have been asked to host for more than a week. Sometimes it was people in serious need, sometimes it was people who simply appreciated the convenience. I'm sure many of the latter had serious needs, but chose to keep them private. I've said no more often than yes, especially this year. There was only one time when I've hosted for more than a month (a refined, helpful older single, not yet frum) and I made some reference calls before agreeing.
Please please please. If you are in need, even if you aren't desperate, please don't feel it is rude or mean to ask a favor. The only people who are hurt are those who for some reason can't say no. Certainly, try not to ask favors of people with their own emotional bugaboos.
The last thing those on the receiving end of chesed need is to feel is guilt that they are somehow rude, horrible people for daring to politely ask a favor.
I've been on the other side, and 90% of healthy people don't enjoy asking for favors.
Will some people take advantage? Certainly. But as long as I work on my boundaries, say no when something doesn't feel right, I have NEVER thought it rude to be politely asked a favor.
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Simple1
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Sun, Jul 04 2021, 8:20 am
| amother [ DarkGreen ] wrote: | | Idk, hard for me to understand why going on a trip for pleasure that necessitates staying in someone’s home (in some cases a stranger) for an extended period of time is a necessity. Going away for mental health, sure, but there’s other ways to do it. |
It's still a chesed even if it's not a necessity. But for sure, say no if you can't do it.
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