Help me figure out if I can do this chesed (lending house)

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essie14

Mon, Sep 19 2022, 6:33 am

There are very few people I would trust in my empty house. My sister, some close friends.
I would never let strangers stay in my house if I wasn't home. They will certainly open doors and drawers that they aren't supposed to. I'd also never ask someone to host my company in their empty house.
In my neighborhood there are people who rent out their basements/spare rooms with separate entrance as Airbnbs and that's where people put up guests for shabbat, chag and smachot.

amother

DarkGreen

Mon, Sep 19 2022, 6:49 am

spikta wrote:

I feel like the people who do this often are people with a regular cleaning lady and probably a fair amount of space. If I knew there was someone who could come in to my home and make it so that I never knew guests were there, and if I had spaces without much personal/sensitive/breakable stuff in them, then yeah sure, no problem.
But for many people that's not the case. I can barely stay on top of my own kids' messes, and I don't want to imagine a bunch of random children making more mess than I'll ever be able to clean.

Op, clearly a lot of people do not feel comfortable with this.

To a certain extent sime are implying 'it's not normal'.

However. I'm here to encourage you that plenty of people are fine with it and do it. I have hosted families, been hosted, and have neighbors host for me. Even when I have not been put out, often a different family member is, so I'm benefitting from that.

From the above you will see there are quite a lot of families willing to host! It's probably more common oot where relatives can only visit if they're sleeping over but I live in Lakewood and almost all my neighbors who go away for yom tov are willing to host! (Not necessarily for me! There's high demand from others!)

I will say a big motivating factor for me lending out my house is the number of times I've been a beneficiary. I would feel very uncomfortable receiving if I was unwilling to pay it forward.

amother

DarkGreen

Mon, Sep 19 2022, 7:38 am

Just want to point out that it's ok to put boundaries on what you're willing to do. Especially if that changes the picture for you and makes it something your comfortable with.

The following are conditions I've put out or heard when hosting/being hosted. Just to give you some ideas and maybe encourage you.

Yes, plenty give out a pristine house with linen, etc. I've been able to do that sometimes and have enjoyed others doing for me. However, I don't turn down a request when I'm not able to provide that level - I state my conditions.

Plenty of houses are in lived in condition. Especially if I'm in a house just for a shobbos, it may have been left not perfect as many people say I'm not doing anything extra...... That's fine. I accept that as a guest. (Or I don't)

Some hosts ask to send a cleaning lady /crew before and after. And maybe be there with her. (Of course the guests/neighbor pays) Even if the neighbors says no need for a before, you can insist if you are uncomfortable having guests see your house less than perfect. They can take it or leave it.

You can ask them to bring linen and towels.

Most people assume they're getting pillows and blankets in this situation. I leave my linen on and tell my guests put their linen over or put mine back on before they leave. This way I come back to made up beds.....it's really hard when you've traveled and now have to make up the beds.

Plenty of people close off the master bedroom. This is super common. I certainly do.. Please don't let this and "feeling mean" make you hold back. If it doesn't work for your neighbors they'll decline. However, extra kids can sleep on mattresses, etc.

Re privacy...yeah, they'll open your closets to hang up their stuff. I can't promise you no one looks in drawers. But really, outside your master bedroom or study how much private stuff is lying around? Lock those rooms. I'm not such a particular person though.

You can leave a note with your "rules" (eg, no food out of kitchen) and relay them to your neighbor as well. You can ask that they eat breakfast and spend day at host (I.e. that they don't hang out in yours, recognize they will still be there in the morning and evening playing with your toys.). Will they listen 100%, some might not. I've found most to be pretty respectful.

Make sure your broom, dustpan, paper towels, and cleaning spray are easily located. Garbage bags, etc. Maybe your vacuum and mop. This makes it easier for guests to clean up after themselves. However, big messes they'll need your neighbor to help with.

If your kids are uncomfortable. Encourage them, and invite them to put their precious toys etc in your room or some other room that they'll lock up.

To preclude someone going through my medicine cabinet (which yes may happen if their kid is sick) I leave out advil, children's Tylenol, and benadryl. You don't have to, most don't, some do.

Some say feel free to take from cabinets, others say here are bowls, spoons, coffee, cups and leave them out. I typically bring my own food (except coffee). When I host I leave out utensils plus cereal , coffee, milk, cookies.. you don't have to it's really your neighbors job to set up the house.

I think people are much more careful when they are given the privilege of using your house, and are super grateful, verses when they are renting. Once someone is "paying", even only a little they feel more like they own the place.
I have had no terrible experiences and only few minor bad ones (toys a mess or put away badly, cigarette butts outside). I'm married 20 years!

Unlike what other posters have said, plenty of people do not have regular cleaning help and have small houses and still host. In many areas this is the only practical option to have company so it's a big chessed.
Even if you are young and go away now, you may want to avail yourself of your neighbors chessed in the future as you start to host yom tov or make simchas.

Hotzlocha with your decision!

little neshamala

Mon, Sep 19 2022, 8:21 am

When we were younger and living in our apartment, our landlord asked us if she could allow her guests to use our kitchen/oven over yomtov while we were away, maybe lounge on our couch etc. Just to use some extra living space. She assured us absolutely no one would be opening a single bedroom door for any reason etc etc.
Being that my landlord was a very sweet, normal lady who I trust, and she knew her guests well and vouched for them, we agreed. But my husband started feeling increasingly uncomfortable as yomtov got closer. So I stressed again to the landlord to please make absolutely sure that they knew not to go in our bedroom. She assured me, of COURSE, absolutely, etc...
Erev yomtov as we were leaving my husband rigged something up that would show us easily if anyone had entered our room. I wont go into details but it was very smart and foolproof.
Sure enough, after yomtov we came back, checked and, someone had tripped the "trap" he had set. Someone had opened the door, and walked into the room.
After that I learned, no matter who it is, or how normal they are...you just never know. There may have been a "reason" (cant think of what) but I felt very upset and somewhat violated.

amother

DarkGreen

Mon, Sep 19 2022, 8:45 am

little neshamala wrote:

Noone should go in, but yeah, I do assume some people will. So I lock my door.

I think it's a different level to pick my bedroom lock (even w a skeleton key) and assume no one has.

Was your door locked?

dankbar

Mon, Sep 19 2022, 8:51 am

People make lot of money doing it. People that need to rent an apt where their rebbe is in different community, cover their expense with renting out their own apt to someone traveling to their rebbe in this community.

People that want to make money will deliberately move into their parents home, even if they are in same community.

I know someone that lived on 6th floor, gave tons of rules and charged 2000 for 2 days couple of years ago. She also couldn't provide as many beds as the guest needed.

There is a desperate need and people are willing to pay. Otoh for the owner it's sometimes only worth it if there is money involved.

I used to give to family & friends as chesed but I stopped doing it. It got too hard, once I needed to have in mind every tissue to take along, plus prepare my home to be perfect for guest, and still have in mind to pull out every little thing for them so that they don't go thru my closets.
The items that I needed to take along were also the items the guests needed like hotplate, playpen silver paper etc.

amother

Eggplant

Mon, Sep 19 2022, 8:57 am

WhatFor wrote:

If she keeps badgering you, questioning, etc, keep repeating above. I know you wrote you hate confrontation, but if she says anything that's starting to get to the "fight" level, "There's no reason for this to become an uncomfortable situation. We're simply unable to help you with this right now but I hope it all works out for you. I need to go now but all the best."

That’s what I’m worried about. I had a neighbor who would fight with me when I said no and this woman seems like a similar personality. Well I’ll just need to stonewall her.

I was tempted to ask the other neighbors about this lady but I was worried it may be LH, and it’s Elul.

amother

Eggplant

Mon, Sep 19 2022, 8:59 am

amother Begonia wrote:

I totally understand why you would be hesitant to agree, and I give you credit, OP, for even thinking about it. I'm not at all sure I would agree were I in your shoes. But for the sake of the family that is desperately trying to spend YT with loved ones and can do so only if generous people make it possible, I hope you will say yes and that the family you so graciously allow to use your home are gracious, careful and considerate in return.

So you don’t lend out your own home, but you’re so willing to encourage others to lend out theirs? How do you justify yourself?

little neshamala

Mon, Sep 19 2022, 9:21 am

amother DarkGreen wrote:

No it wasnt locked-but thats my point- you cant put physical locks on every thing in the house-a lot of it is based on trust, and im saying that even if someone assures you that they wont touch the piano/use your towels/take stuff from a specific closet/touch a filing cabinet/whatever it is that you may ask them not to do...they very well may say ok, and then not listen.

amother

Azure

Mon, Sep 19 2022, 10:07 am

amother DarkGreen wrote:

It's possible they were looking for a bathroom and opened up the door not realizing it was a bedroom. But yes, people usually lock doors to rooms they specifically don't want guests opening. Even in rentals.
I've had guests but never a bad experience. That said, nobody who asked me has been pushy, because that's sort of a warning sign. Very polite requests, no overstepping boundaries.

mig100

Mon, Sep 19 2022, 10:16 am

Op I feel with you. I like to extend myself for others and would gladly have guests while im home.

I would also be very hesitant to have anyone in my house while Im not home. I get you

moonstone

Mon, Sep 19 2022, 12:13 pm

amother Clematis wrote:

Sorry, but you come across as a bit selfish. If you don't have room for all your kids, then you don't spend yom tov everyone together. Most people don't. You don't put pressure on others to do something they're not comfortable doing because you want to spend yom tov with all kids together.

I agree. If there's no hotel or air bnb close by, then for me the plan to all be together would be canceled. I would never in a million years try to make it work by imposing on various neighbors by sticking my relatives in their houses. Omg, never. Everyone can go to a hotel together, and if that isn't feasible, then it's a no go. That's life.

amother

Caramel

Mon, Sep 19 2022, 12:27 pm

moonstone wrote:

I've lent out my house and have said no in the past depending on circumstances but I had to commenton your post.
Did you ever make a simcha like a bar mitzva or aufruf and have no relative come because there's no hotel within walking distance ?

amother

DarkGreen

Mon, Sep 19 2022, 1:44 pm

moonstone wrote:

This may be how you feel. But I wish you wouldn't say it in such a stuck up horrified tone.

It is not a rare thing. It is a normal thing. I get some people can't do it, I have a couple siblings like that as well. I get that people can't do it all the time- ill admit that's me. But no one should feel that it is an unheard of chutzpah request (pushing after being declined is a different story).

I have lived or have relatives in Lakewood , Brooklyn, Queens, 5 towns, Passaic, and many oot cities large and small. In all of them people host their relatives in empty houses and people give up their homes for this purpose.
Especially true in cities of smaller homes and/or no basements. I, my parents, in laws, and (most) siblings loan our homes as well.

Are you able you host "everybody", well probably only for a simcha. Kind of greedy to grab all the empty houses for yourself for succos! But for many, even to host one family requires another space and yom tov time that space is often found in an empty house.
In my neighborhood, people with guest rooms are using them for themselves.

Most area I have relatives in do not have airbnbs except it their also vacation destinations. If there are hotels, IF, they are not necessarily located anywhere near the hosting relative.

And who has thousands of dollars for all those airbnbs and hotels? Only the rich get to host their children because they have space or $$$ to put the family in a hotel and catering ?

Nope. The rest of us have figured out a more cost effective way that does involve slight discomfort but is more a cost effective and convenient stay. We don't exactly house swap, but pay of forward. I go away so I lend my house to my neighbor's daughters family. I stay in my sil's next door neighbors house. They are probably staying in someone else's house wherever they are going. And so the world goes round and the chessed chain continues.

I'm here to emphasize it happens everywhere and is very normal.
Again. If you're too uptight and your going to be nervous and agitated, skip this chessed. But if you can get comfortable with it it's a very nice thing!

May there always be guest space available to you and everyone else!!

Alternative

Mon, Sep 19 2022, 1:46 pm

amother DarkGreen wrote:

Most people assume they're getting pillows and blankets in this situation. I leave my linen on and tell my guests put their linen over or put mine back on before they leave. This way I come back to made up beds.....it's really hard when you've traveled and now have to make up the beds.

I would be scared to do that. I know plenty of people who would just sleep on your linen without bothering to put theirs over.

amother

Hyacinth

Mon, Sep 19 2022, 1:48 pm

This thread makes me so sad.

My house is not mine. I’m a temporary dweller in it. No matter if I own it or rent it or Airbnb it, our lives on earth are temporary and we take none of it with us. Our stuff is there to use in service to Hashem. I’ve gone to clean up a house after someone has passed, and there’s just always so much stuff we throw away. To them it was of vital importance but after it’s just garbage.

If your husband or your children have a huge problem with lending your stuff, their needs are important. But otherwise, I encourage everyone to remember that’s it’s just stuff. What can we do with it?

I’m not always good at remembering this. Of course I struggle with having guests that need me or giving things away. But my goal is to give more. This Elul I pray that Hashem sends me enough money to add on another guest bedroom, and I give you all a bracha that you each get the opportunity to make gorgeous guest bedrooms, wherever you are in life!

amother

DarkGreen

Mon, Sep 19 2022, 2:11 pm

Alternative wrote:

I would be scared to do that. I know plenty of people who would just sleep on your linen without bothering to put theirs over.

I emphasize that I will be using my linen and they need to cover it. To the neighbor and guests.

If people choose to take advantage of my hospitality by using my linen anyway.....I guess I'm naive but I have to trust them here that they have more integrity than that. I have had people use something from the linen closet because they forgot a pillowcase or something, they leave it on the washing machine.

And I guess the "risk" is my kids sleep on used linen until the next time I wash it... and can't even tell. I can take that risk. That's probably why I'm willing to be so trusting.

Chayalle

Mon, Sep 19 2022, 2:38 pm

amother Hyacinth wrote:

This POV is very admirable. However, practically speaking, we have a whole 4 chelkei Shulchan Aruch about protecting peoples' property. So I do understand people wanting to protect theirs, and having boundaries in place that work for them. I feel that way myself.

I happen to have given my house out when I was not home, but my personal boundary is that I have to know and trust who is using my space (and it has to be at a time that is workable - as I posted earlier, I feel that the people who pressured me immediately post-partum were really not so reasonable. For myself, I wouldn't dream of asking someone in that position for their guest space). And I know that after 120 I won't be taking it with me, but right now it's alot of work for me, and a fair amount of discomfort, to deal with guests if they aren't on the standard I need to feel comfortable.

Funny people mention linen - another of my personal boundary things is that outside linen does not come into my home. I have this fear of bedbugs. I'd rather people use my own linen and I'll wash it when I have time - I can dump it in the laundry room till after YT.

I have been hosted by others for Simchas (my sister's wonderful neighbors gave me their home when they were away and we had Shabbos Sheva Brachos) and I'm very grateful for that. I'm happy to pay that forward, within parameters that work for me.

amother

Rose

Mon, Sep 19 2022, 3:13 pm

This post is so validating to me! We have a house upstate, and my husband was suggesting that we should share it with others in the family as a form of Hakars Hatov. The idea of someone (even extended family) sleeping in my bedroom made me feel rather uncomfortable, but I felt guilty about it -- until I read this post.

Now I gained a new understanding that it is normal, and that I should not have to feel ashamed about not being at ease sharing my private space with others. I am a private person by nature, so this is really hard for me, and I can relate to the OP that this is hard for her too. Not to sound too philosophical, but I feel that sometimes being able to admit to ourselves that something is hard for us, makes room for being able to overcome this difficulty, while at other times, we just need to honor that something is too difficult for us, without trying to fix it.

Just curious, for those who say that sharing your space for pay resolves this issue for them: How does that work for you? I wish to learn. I was considering renting my summer home, but haven't so far for the above reasons. I can see how getting paid for it takes the edge of feeling like I am being taken advantage of in a sense, but how does it resolve the issue of feeling like my privacy is being invaded? When someone sleeps in by bed, they sleep in my bed. Whether or not I get paid for it, seems irrelevant.

Can I rent my place and close off the master bedroom? I will likely lose some of the rental income, but maybe it is still worth it.

amother

Ultramarine

Mon, Sep 19 2022, 3:37 pm

Since I could never conceive of asking anyone but a close relative let alone a casual acquaintance of neighbor to do this, I feel no obligation to lend my house to someone when I am not there.

For those who do stay in a stranger's house I have a few questions

Do you hire or provide enough for someone to clean the house or do you scour the house before you leave? If someone stayed in my home I would not rest easy until it was thoroughly cleaned.

Do you give a very generous hostess gift?

Do you eat or drink anything? If so do you replenish what you have taken?

Do you feel free to use the toiletries in the bathroom like shampoo and conditioner?

What about utilities especially air conditioning when it is hot?

How do you handle damages? Do you replace it? Do you inspect for any hidden damage your kids might have done?

For homeowners - Are you nervous about lice, pinworms, bedbugs or other vermin that might be brought into the home. Even if you locked up your master they would be using your mattresses and using your bathrooms.

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