Is entitlement absolute or community dependant

amother

Forestgreen

Tue, Nov 29 2022, 11:16 am

Chayalle wrote:

Forestgreen, I think there's a big difference if it's someone or everyone else got.

I disagree. There have been times when everyone in the class got something and somehow my kid missed out. It happens. It can be extremely disappointing. Not downplaying that. But sometimes we don't get things that everyone else gets.

It's a fact of life. Why should kids be coddled and raised to believe that they will get everything that "everybody" gets? Or that they *deserve* to get what "everyone else" gets? Life doesn't always work that way.

I don't intentionally withhold things that "everyone" gets, but I think it's a very important lesson to learn, and I try to reinforce that idea when I can.

essie14

Tue, Nov 29 2022, 11:29 am

If my mother helped all my sisters PP and not me, am I entitled if I feel disappointed?
If it's something done and something that everyone gets?
If you are literally raised that "this is the way it's done" and then you don't get it?
Isn't that the same thing as expecting your parents to pay for a Jewish Day School tuition?
If your older siblings all went to Bais Yaakov and all of a sudden in 9th grade your parents say "we are switching you to PS 198 or you can pay for BY yourself"
Of course if you were Jane Smith in Boise, Idaho, you wouldn't' expect your parents to pay for private school education, and to expect that would be pretty darn entitled. But if you are Ruchi Cohen in Lakewood of course you would.

imorethanamother

Tue, Nov 29 2022, 11:38 am

keym wrote:

Heres my problem.
I've noticed a trend on Imamother. Someone posts a kvetch. How no one helps her with her baby postpartum. How her parents or inlaws aren't giving community standards. Or anything really. And she gets beaten down, called entitled.
Now I think it's ok to gently tell that OP that there are some people in the world at large don't have that particular benefit.
But is it fair, nice or particularly helpful to lambaste a woman whose mother isn't watching her kids postpartum, whose in-laws refuse to give her leichter, or whose bus route didn't get picked up and they're stuck carpooling in Lakewood.
It's ok to acknowledge that they aren't actually entitled brats, just disappointed humans.

I think it’s fair to point out entitlement. I think using the word makes us take a step back and evaluate whether this is true.

I don’t believe in patting someone’s back and saying “oh, poor you.”, because that perpetuates the misery. Ultimately we can choose to be mad or miserable about something we can’t change, or we can change our own perspective.

On another thread, there was someone complaining bitterly about her in laws giving her money but not enough money, and how awful it was that their money for a down payment came with strings attached that they should live near them. The OP seemed determined that these were bad people, and another family relationship bites the dust because we are so busy validating the OP and her feelings that we sabotage what could have been something beautiful.

How many fights are in families over money? So so many. And maybe this website helps foster that.

amother

Birch

Tue, Nov 29 2022, 11:48 am

keym wrote:

It comes down to attitude. Disappointment is normal. Giving empathy to a disappointed person is kind. Sometimes a poster is so hostile about her lot that there is no other way to read it except as entitlement and to add agreement to her position rather than help her see another perspective and move on with life is not kind at all. It can only stand to intensify bitterness and victimhood.

Chayalle

Tue, Nov 29 2022, 1:32 pm

amother Forestgreen wrote:

Sure, we don't get what everyone else gets. My point is, I can understand the disappointment more. And I don't think that feeling that disappointment makes that person entitled.

I know someone who grew up in a simple family. This person deliberately likes to hang out with a wealthy set. She is forever griping about the things she didn't get that her friends got. But her friends are not everyone in the community - they are the wealthy subset of the community. OK, she can be disappointed, but it smacks of entitlement.

OTOH someone who is expected to constantly make do with less than the most average people in her community, we can understand her disappointment and frustration more.

mig100

Tue, Nov 29 2022, 1:50 pm

Chayalle wrote:

for sure

socialbutterfly

Tue, Nov 29 2022, 2:57 pm

I think it’s parental dependent. The relationships between parent to child and the overall values of the home seem to be the strongest indicator of entitlement in my experience. Of course there are exceptions, but I believe more often than not, if analyzing closely enough one can see how the child’s overall behavior very much stems from what happens at home.

Chayalle

Tue, Nov 29 2022, 3:03 pm

From a parental perspective, I see it as finding a balance. I've seen kids who don't fit into the community at all go the other way - whether in terms of their hashkafa changing (why stick to a community's hashkafa if you don't fit in with them on social values) or developing an extreme need for whatever they felt they were lacking. OTOH I don't think giving in on every "must have" is a good way to raise kids with confidence either.

socialbutterfly

Tue, Nov 29 2022, 3:06 pm

Chayalle wrote:

Correct. And that’s definitely a huge piece as to why I feel it comes from the home.

honey36

Tue, Nov 29 2022, 3:33 pm

I think that the idea of being makir tov has a big piece in this. If you know how to appreciate what you have, it is much harder to be entitled.

I once heard a story of a young mother who got terminal cancer. When people asked her if she ever wondered "why me?", She would answer them, "you know, I grew up in a loving family, never lacked for anything, found my shidduch easily, had children easily, didn't struggle with parnassah, the children are growing up beautiful etc. For all the good things that happened, I never asked "why me?" And I'm not going to start now."

Now, of course your going to empathize with someone who has cancer or wtver. I don't judge anyone, the only person I need to look at is myself I try to have an attitude of being makir tov, I keep my expectations in life very low, and then when s/t goes wrong I don't get too disappointed.

Alternative

Tue, Nov 29 2022, 3:38 pm

amother Vanilla wrote:

I think receiving gifts is part of being feminine.
It is hashems design that a husband should be gifting his wife and not vice versa.

Possibly. But then the whole point is for the husband to buy gifts for his wife. Not his parents.

I don’t see anything feminine or romantic about getting jewellery from your in laws. I get that it’s mandatory in some communities, but I actually find it off putting when the man didn’t buy any of the gifts, not even the engagement ring - his mommy and tatty did, and they chose them too. There is something emasculating about that IMO.

amother

Vanilla

Tue, Nov 29 2022, 3:49 pm

Alternative wrote:

you are right, all the way.
the point is for the husband to give to the wife.

amother

Maize

Tue, Nov 29 2022, 4:06 pm

Alternative wrote:

Often, these parents won't allow their sons to work. They are expected to attend yeshiva until marriage. Therefore they should pay for the engagement ring - their son can't afford it because they wont allow him to work.

amother

Fuchsia

Wed, Nov 30 2022, 1:24 am

amother Aquamarine wrote:

The people who don't consider themselves abused were still abused. Their brains show the same trauma.

I'm 100% against corporal punishment and don't do it to my kids ever. But I stand by my point about community expectations. My parents spanked and so did all of my friends' parents. All of my friends' parents let them get driver's liscenses (obviously we did not live in NYC) and get summer jobs at Dominos (pizza), etc, when they were 16, and mine did not.

Maybe my brain has trauma from the spanking and not from sitting at home like a useless log at age 16 and 17, but I can tell you that I am a lot more bitter about the lack of a driver's liscense and lack of work experience/spending money. Not only did I enter the workforce naive and unsophisticated as a 16 year old because I had NO prior work experience, but also I got a driver's liscense once I had kids and was a brand new driver driving the most precious cargo, vs if I had gotten a driver's liscense at 16 I would have already had 7 years of driving experience when I had my first baby and that would have been safer for everyone.

With the spanking, while I'm a little bit bitter, I can say "my parents weren't perfect, but they weren't doing anything that was considered bad or unusual at the time". But with their unusual overrestricting me as a teen, I can't say that. They saw everyone else having cars and jobs and enjoying it, and heard my arguments, and just totally ignored them. Other adults even tried to talk to them about it on my behalf, and they refused to listen to logic. I'm very bitter about that.