For all those jealous of the poor—peaceful discussion please

amother

↑ OP ↓

Wed, Jan 11 2023, 7:59 pm

amother Molasses wrote:

Yes I studied economics so I was aware it could and would cause inflation. Not really taxes - I haven't seen that taxes have gone up.

Still I was glad to get it at the time - sort of like an internet free loan (for me).

yeah but I mean like did you also get to get an opportunity to invest like buy a house for cheap (I heard the prices went down then and mortgage rates were lowest since) KNOWING it would go back up in value due to taxes inflation etc.. I remember someone I knew was looking into a house and had saved just enough over the years to get a decent house in marine park... while the rates were low but she assumed it will go lower or she will find cheaper etc.. it did not

amother

↑ OP ↓

Wed, Jan 11 2023, 8:02 pm

amother Orange wrote:

For all you know each family goes once every few months. Or it’s just the rich people. The volume of people living here is so high everything is packed at any given time. Last time I went was mostly teens using their babysitting money…

oh that explains it well I guess... I just remember when we were kids my dear loving uncle (yes he was the special one) would take his kids and nieces (and I was the oldest) to pizza and would get a pie one fries one Cajun one onion ring and two big fountain sodas for 13 or 14.99
Those old days don't exist anymore

amf

Wed, Jan 11 2023, 8:21 pm

OP- I mean this in the nicest possible way, but please listen to yourself. You've so far talked about a vacation over shabbos in a hotel, going out to eat, only considering trendy glasses to be acceptable...what you consider basic and frugal are what others consider luxurious. Your poor is someone else's rich. And the same way you did it cheaply, everyone else tries to too.
Let's stop making everything about "class" and "being on/off programs". People spend on what they value and therefore they find a way to try to finance those purchases. Some people make the choice (or, unfortunately, the choice is made for them) to work less, and so need gvmt help. It's not an automatic indicator that they're poor. A family of 3 on every program might be richer than a family of 7 earning 3x their salary.

Also, the middle class that you're talking about in your OP just doesn't exist...that's way past middle class. Programs aren't even on the radar of those people

↑ Amarante ↓

Wed, Jan 11 2023, 8:37 pm

amother Molasses wrote:

I'm not an attorney so I'm not 100% sure, but I do think that there are trusts that do not give over control to the children, at least not till 120. As a matter of fact, I don't think the children have control in any kind of trust. The question is who does.... I'm not sure but I don't think its do simple.

There are Trusts (generally called Revocable Trusts) which enable the person to retain ownership and control of the assets. These are set up to enable the estate to avoid the expense and delay of probate.

However for the purpose of conserving assets for Medicaid if one needs long term care, the person can NOT control the assets nor can the spouse. A child or any other third party has complete control of the assets. It also has to be established five years prior to the application for long term care under Medicaid.

This is NOT legal advice. There are attorneys who specialize in this area and one should consult with an attorney well in advance in order to determine the best way to proceed. Most people do not set up these so-called Medicaid Asset Protection Trusts but it may be appropriate for an individual or family - only an attorney who is advised of all of your assets and issues can help you make that decision and set it up properly.

amother

Coffee ↓

Wed, Jan 11 2023, 9:16 pm

I'm curious why the middle class don't go to Refuah Health Share. It is a lot cheaper (by 50% or more) than any marketplace plan and fairly reasonable even if they don't cover prescriptions. There's also an out of pocket maximum that makes it affordable.

(That's my plan when medicaid kicks us off whenever they decide covid is over.)

amother

↑ OP ↓

Wed, Jan 11 2023, 9:23 pm

amother Coffee wrote:

How does Refuah health share work ?

amother

↑ NeonPurple ↓

Wed, Jan 11 2023, 9:30 pm

Trademark wrote:

Exactly.

Some people want some joy in life. A few dollars for donuts for chanukah isn't a luxury. (Also she didn't say in the post that it was $8 donuts).

As I said extreme frugality doesn't work for most people.

Cleaning help is maybe not a basic life necessity but for a few dollars you can sometimes save so much stress. It's not always about the dollars and cents.

Cleaning help is not a few dollars. It is minimum $15 an hour probably more. Most people won't come less than a day which is well over $100. I'm happy that's not a big deal for you but for some people it is.

amother

↑ Orange ↓

Wed, Jan 11 2023, 9:32 pm

amother NeonPurple wrote:

Many of my neighbors share days and only have 2-3 hours a day.

amother

↑ NeonPurple ↓

Wed, Jan 11 2023, 9:34 pm

amother Orange wrote:

Many of my neighbors share days and only have 2-3 hours a day.

2-3 hours a day once a week or every day? That can add up to a lot! Personally I don't have cleaning help and am ok with it. Everyone pitches in. But it's a really big expense and I totally hear how people can't afford it.

amother

↑ Maroon

Wed, Jan 11 2023, 9:35 pm

amother Rainbow wrote:

Here are the jobs that seem to bring in upper middle class income:
Attorney
CPA
Doctor
NP/PA/RN
Psychologist
Business owner
Nursing home admin
Healthcare supply industry

Just want to comment on this that unless it's two of these jobs at least you're still often squarely middle class. According to the IRS it is somewhere between 400k-650k that people phase out of middle class and I dont think they're taking into account large families and frum lifestyle.

↑ Trademark ↓

Wed, Jan 11 2023, 9:40 pm

amother NeonPurple wrote:

I'm not saying that it's not a big deal for some people.

My point is that some posters can't seem to understand why people spend more than the bare minimum when they are not rich. They consider everything besides basic life necessities a luxury reserved only for the wealthy.

I'm saying that this frugality is not realistic for many people, even if they don't have extra money.

amother

↑ NeonPurple ↓

Wed, Jan 11 2023, 9:42 pm

Trademark wrote:

One shouldn't be spending money they don't have on non essentials. Not sure why thats so difficult. That's how people get deep into debt.

amother

↑ Stone ↓

Wed, Jan 11 2023, 9:43 pm

amother Maroon wrote:

Actually middle class in the New York City area tops out at $169,000.

Upper middle class would be above that amount.

But even people I know with theoretically "upper middle class" salaries - I.e well paid executive, lawyers, accountants etc. do not live the "rich" life that many frum people think is their right.

For starters most people do not send their kids to private school. They try to live in school districts which have excellent public school systems or even in certain neighborhoods in NYC which feed into excellent public schools. They don't have 6 children - 3 children would be a lot. And obviously they don't eat kosher meat and also don't have to spend even more money on heimish products which are even more expensive than just kosher equivalents.

amother

↑ Orange ↓

Wed, Jan 11 2023, 9:45 pm

amother NeonPurple wrote:

A week!

amother

↑ Stone ↓

Wed, Jan 11 2023, 9:45 pm

Trademark wrote:

Sorry but this is crazy

If you don't have money you don't buy anything that isn't essential to your family's survival.

Frugality isn't optional - you can only spend what money you have

Consider Charles Dickens' famous quote which is as relevant today as it was in the 19th Century

Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery”

amother

↑ Sunflower ↓

Wed, Jan 11 2023, 9:48 pm

amother NeonPurple wrote:

2 hours a day can come to $150 a week, if you are talking help 5 days a week, and then $600 a month. Even just twice a week costs $60, and monthly that's about $250. People on tight budgets genuinely don't have that extra money to spend, it's not just "a few extra" dollars. These are not the people who could just cut back on their coffee shop habit to pay for it, because they don't ever treat themselves to that sort of thing in the first place!
I think, if you haven't lived that true "suffering middle class" lifestyle, it may be hard to understand: but some people really literally just can't, as much as they could use it. It's not a matter of not prioritizing it, it's a matter of paying absolute necessities such as food, shelter, utilities (all on a basic level). And these people are not technically "poor" but they literally live paycheck to paycheck. This is the reality of the suffering middle class.

↑ Amarante ↓

Wed, Jan 11 2023, 9:49 pm

amother Orange wrote:

A week!

Assuming you are paying a cleaning lady $18 per hour which is about as low as you can pay one in most areas now, that is $54 per week which is $2800 per year - that is the amount payable from your NET income.

So from your net income deduct rent/mortage/insurance/tuition/utilities/car or transportation/food - what is left over?

amother

↑ Molasses ↓

Wed, Jan 11 2023, 9:51 pm

Amarante wrote:

You're right, I was thinking of revocable trusts , which I have now realized is useless for Medicaid.

I'm not sure why everyone is busy touting trusts for Medicaid, it seems really risky plus the idea that you lose control of your assets... I really don't understand why people think this is such a great option.

amother

↑ NeonPink ↓

Wed, Jan 11 2023, 9:51 pm

amother NeonPurple wrote:

One shouldn't be spending money they don't have on non essentials. Not sure why thats so difficult. That's how people get deep into debt.

What if they have a nervous breakdown? It'll just be another medical bill only that much more expensive.

amother

↑ Molasses ↓

Wed, Jan 11 2023, 9:52 pm

Amarante wrote:

Even when I was living in real poverty, I found the money for two hours a week. Sanity is worth money too....