Dh annoyed by DS and hat wearing

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Forum -> Parenting our children -> Teenagers and Older children

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Wolfsbane

Sat, Jan 21 2023, 8:58 pm

It just sounds like he was trying to be respectful of the person and community he was visiting.

amother

Watermelon

Sat, Jan 21 2023, 9:00 pm

amother OP wrote:

That is so interesting-
I am really appreciating this conversation and learning so much.
if we can so easily change minhagim what is the point of a minhag? Isn't the idea that we pass down our customs from generation to generation- that's what make so incredible of a people.

Not wearing a hat is not a minhag. I think we need to clarify what a minhag is. It really only applies to keeping certain mitzvohs like kiddush, Seder, and other Yom tov things. Levush/ clothing is not a big deal and putting on extra is not a problem. Your husband has to not feel threatened by his son wanting to do more than him.

amother

Calendula

Sat, Jan 21 2023, 9:01 pm

Op are you by any chance Sephardic
For all those that don’t know
This is a HUGE deal for Sephardim

They believe it will cause the family to split up
As if the parents are not good enough any more, and when grandchildren come along they will have so many chumrahs that they won’t be allowed to be around them.

nelliesmellie

Sat, Jan 21 2023, 9:03 pm

Sounds like you and your dh are feeling threatened by the kind of people that wear black hats- and that those people do it for thr perception of frumkeit but are all just fakers- and you don’t want your son to be one of them as he may try to tell you how to act and dress and make you feel “less than”. Some advice- he’s an adult. If you and your husband cannot come to terms with this and require him to do everything in the exact way that he was brought up (no hat/hat is not a minhag- it’s an association with the group that you belong to) you will have bigger problems moving forward. Let go and be proud of him for trying something new.

amother

Calendula

Sat, Jan 21 2023, 9:06 pm

Unless you live in that community you wouldn’t understand

hodeez

Sat, Jan 21 2023, 9:10 pm

The way you're approaching this you would think your son was caught with a pipe or something. What in the world is wrong with him putting on a hat? Much better than him taking off his yarmulka chv. Be happy this is what you have to worry about with him!

amother

Bluebell

Sat, Jan 21 2023, 9:16 pm

amother Calendula wrote:

Exactly. Because Sephardic customs are sometimes very lenient - if a child decides to do more and change some of those customs and by doing so excludes the parents that is obviously wrong. In this case it sounds like the parents are excluding him for these exact reasons- they are afraid of being told that they are less-than. Kibud av vaem is a halacha and a child can grow without ever making his parents feel less-than. If he’s getting the no change is ok message from his parents and is till maintaining that respect for them, he’s a better man than they are being to him

NotInNJMommy

Sat, Jan 21 2023, 9:17 pm

Although the idea of minhag hamakom is very different in the US and many places in recent generations, it actually is more dominant and binding than family minhagim, halachically. So in a way, it makes sense to want to follow the customs where you are etc. in some ways.

Wolfsbane

Sat, Jan 21 2023, 9:22 pm

Wolfsbane wrote:

It just sounds like he was trying to be respectful of the person and community he was visiting.

I just wanted to add - I really wouldn't read anything into someone wearing a hat for one Shabbos to show respect and not stand out in the community they are visiting.

From your posts, it sounds like maybe there's a broader concern about your son following a slightly different derech than yours. I think it's totally normal to find it upsetting when a child follows a different path than your own, but also totally normal for adults to be a little bit different than their parents. And it's not a rejection of the parents' way of life. (Please ignore me if I'm reading into things.)

amother

Seafoam

Sat, Jan 21 2023, 9:27 pm

Just clarifying, wearing a black hat is NOT a minhag. NOT wearing a hat like your Dh does is not a minhag either. They are hanhagos, and do not have the significance in halacha that a minhag does (“minhag Yisrael halacha hi”

You said a hat has no source. This is not true, there are many sources that I remember learning (but can’t quote, mommy brain) that supports wearing an extra head covering for davening out of kavod.

I get the feeling your dh thinks that black hatters measure their frumkeit with their externals. Yes there are outliers like this, but the majority are not. In their eyes, It is a uniform of the soldiers of Torah. Let your son align himself with that, what harm is he doing?

I would recommend becoming friends with different sects of Judaism. You may be surprised to learn that they are all beautiful!

I literally have cousins who are Syrian, chassidish, yeshivish, jpf, MO, conservative, and dati leumi.

Every one of them are sincere growing beautiful people. Remove your judgement, and may this be your hardest problem with your son ever!

AlwaysGrateful

Sat, Jan 21 2023, 9:28 pm

For those of you acting like the OP is being ridiculous...Would you feel the same way if your son, who generally wears a black hat/ black yarmulke/whatever would go to an MO shul and wear a kipa sruga in order to "fit in"? Or would you feel concerned at all?

sevengirl

Sat, Jan 21 2023, 9:36 pm

AlwaysGrateful wrote:

Would not be concerned at all.. would be happy that my child is exploring derechs in the big tent of orthodoxy

NotInNJMommy

Sat, Jan 21 2023, 9:38 pm

AlwaysGrateful wrote:

If my son were in his 20s, I'd definitely not be concerned about what head covering he's wearing while in shul. I'd be glad he covers his head and goes to shul voluntarily and has friends who do so too.

allthingsblue

Sat, Jan 21 2023, 9:43 pm

AlwaysGrateful wrote:

If the son was 20, I would realize that it’s not my place to share opinions on that.

amother

Watermelon

Sat, Jan 21 2023, 9:44 pm

AlwaysGrateful wrote:

I would understand that he didn't want to stand out and I wouldn't care. I also wouldn't meddle in my 20 something child's life about anything.

amother

Clear

Sat, Jan 21 2023, 9:45 pm

OP,

First off lets get this out of the way:

There is no such thing as a “minhag” to NOT wear a black hat.

A minhag pertains to halachic issues.

You simply don't wear them. And that is completely fine.

Therefore what you seem to mean is: “shittah”.

(Meaning its not your “thing” to wear them. But there is no halacha involved here).

Onward:

Everyone takes their own path to reach in practice the best they can in yiddishkeit.

Your DS might want to try “yeshivish” and see how it fits him.

And if that is the way he feels that he can attain proper Avodas HaBorei, so be it B”H.

You and DH feel you need to take a different path to do so. So be it as well.

But presumedly the end goal is a fine upstanding, Torah Jew, am I correct?

So why is YOUR path the only “right” one?

You raised him, he sounds like a fine MAN, not a child.

He is NOT rejecting your goals he is simply finding his own path to attaining them!

And now he needs to decide how to create a beautiful life of his own within the Torah parameters.

So perhaps, he did indeed just want to “fit in” for Shabbos or perhaps he is interested in that lifestyle.

Look around at the craziness out there and you and DH should scream on top of your lungs:

THANK YOU HASHEM FOR A FRUM EHRLICHE DS. THANK YOU HASHEM FOR THE NACHAS.

And just as he is not trying to change YOU, YOU must love and accept him if he does make changes. And these changes are within the parameter of a beautiful frum life!

This can be your make it or break it time. Please have a serious discussion with your DH and perhaps your Rav. PLEASE don't misstep here!

And he is NOT a child, he is a MAN. This sounds very much like DH cant handle it and feels threatened by DS, in which case, help is needed for DH asap to accept the paths in yiddishkeit your children might take and love and accept.

DH needs to work on his OWN insecurities and NOT project them onto DS.

He need to immediately accept that he CANNOT and SHOULD NOT, want to control the decisions of an adult.

Yes, be there to help as well as guide as needed and asked for but then...

Do this and you will BE”H have a lifelong, loving relationship. (Or I’ll “eat my hat”, lol).

Much, much nachas!

amother

Mistyrose

Sat, Jan 21 2023, 9:52 pm

amother OP wrote:

Did your great grandparents wear Kippas only or did they wear another head covering? Unless you are Sefaradi I’m willing to bet the latter. Your son has more fidelity to the customs handed down to you than DH does.

iyar

Sat, Jan 21 2023, 9:59 pm

amother OP wrote:

We haven't said anything to DS and hopefully this was just for DS to feel less like he stands out... but wearing a hat is a minhag and it is not our minhag. Are we allowed to eat start waiting 3 hours if minhag is 6? rice on pesach if its not our minhag? Minhagim are not meant to be changed... that's my issue.

I understand your issue. You’re right - minhagim aren’t meant to be changed.
We have years to teach our kids our derech. We choose their schools, their camps, what shul they go too, even to an extent what friends they play with. We teach them our minhagim and show them how we think Shabbos and Yom Tov should look. Then they become adults. Sometimes what we taught them is as precious to them as it is to us and sometimes it’s not. It’s okay to be sad when we see them not continuing to do things the way their parents and grandparents did. It’s not okay to be critical of their choices or to put them down for choosing to do things differently.
There are so many parents working hard to show their children love and acceptance when those kids have made choices that completely removed them from keeping Shabbos and doing mitzvos. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to ask your husband to show your son love and acceptance if he chooses a different head covering. Yes minhagim are important but head covering is such a small thing in the scheme of things. It’s not like you have to be scared he’s going to bring treif into your kitchen. Or G-d forbid put on a shtreimel.

amother

Latte

Sat, Jan 21 2023, 10:02 pm

amother Clear wrote:

This. A thousand times this.

And a word to the wise: your DH wants to develop a good sense of respect for your adult child no matter what their choices, sarcastic remarks aside, if he wants to maintain closeness and a healthy relationship going. As a daughter of a father highly sarcastic of any way of practicing Judaism different than his own, trust me, you don't want to do this.

My kids in their twenties each have different path. They aren't clones of ourselves, they are thinking adults who (hopefully) we've raised to use their brains, ask quetions and seek answers on their own. Everyone has to find their own way and will hopefully make Hashem proud in the end, also hopefully feeling our love, support and respect along the way.

amother

Chestnut

Sat, Jan 21 2023, 10:05 pm

amother OP wrote:

DS is in mid twenties somehow connected with a Rav in Brooklyn and was invited for shabbos. He was very excited as this was something totally different for him and a unique opportunity. It is not our minhag to wear a hat. DH heard from other DS that DS borrowed a black hat from a friend to wear to Brooklyn for shabbos so he will not stand out. DH thinks this is ridiculous, aside from the fact that he did not share with us that was his plan- not that he has to, but seems like he was hiding it... I would hide it too knowing dh's reaction, and yeh he doesn't have to answer to us- although we are paying his living expenses.... I don't get why DS would be embarrassed to just wear his kippah. DD tried to explain to me its like wearing a purple shabbos shirt when everyone wears white.. I don't see it as the same thing. I see it and DH sees it as he embarrassed by our minhagim... I am praying dh doesn't say anything to him and keeps his sarcastic remarks to me. I don't know why dh just can't let it go...he holds on to it too much- I don't get it. ... thanks for letting me vent.

You say you hope your dh doesn’t say anything to him, but yet you’re also expressing disapproval at ds!
It’s never a bad thing if a child shows interest in taking on some additional minhag even if it’s temporary or to fit in with his peers.

If your dh gives him grief about it he’s making a major mistake and will probably push your ds to never confide or share with the two of you, or worse, rebel.

Pass this along to your dh and make sure you yourself don’t express or show any disapproval.

Your ds didn’t share this with you both precisely because of how you expect your dh to react.

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