S/o what if not everyone is cut out for motherhood?

amother

Whitewash

Mon, May 01 2023, 7:49 am

ora_43 wrote:

People keep saying "non-Jewish world" or at best "secular world" when what they mean is, secular white upper-middle-class Americans.

I personally didn’t mean that all. I have lived on several continents and am not currently in the US. When I talk of the secular world, I do not mean this at all.

ora_43

Mon, May 01 2023, 7:58 am

amother Natural wrote:

And what if you're widowed and your fifteen children all live in different countries on five different continents and three islands, none of them the one you live on? You deal with being alone. There are no guarantees in life, and even marrying and having a large family doesn't guarantee that you won't end up alone anyway. People should have children because they want to, period, not as an antidote to loneliness.

By that logic nobody should try anything in life. Don't bother building a career, what if your industry ends up collapsing? Don't bother not having children, what if all of your siblings are incapacitated and you're the only one who can raise your nieces and nephews?

Nothing is guaranteed in life but it would be silly not to do the things that are likely (not guaranteed!) to bring us happiness.

ora_43

Mon, May 01 2023, 8:01 am

amother Whitewash wrote:

I personally didn’t mean that all. I have lived on several continents and am not currently in the US. When I talk of the secular world, I do not mean this at all.

I wasn't responding to any one particular person.

But I did see people saying that in "the non-Jewish world" or "the secular world" it's more accepted to be childfree... right, try telling your Muslim Bedouin family or your secular Indian or Nigerian family that you're going to be child-free.

Not that nobody is cool with that, people have different opinions everywhere on earth, but the idea that there's this widespread acceptance is just wildly off.

ora_43

Mon, May 01 2023, 8:13 am

amother Bone wrote:

A lot of my secular friends are choosing to remain childless and forgo marriage. I hear their dating horror stories. Many are struggling to pay their bills and can’t fathom adding children to their struggles. Some have mental health issues and don’t feel it would be right to have children. And some just plain don't like children.

And sometimes that's a bad decision, too.

I think we need to be careful of adopting extreme individualism as the "neutral" way of life, while anything else is "pressure". There are pros and cons to everything.

Yes, the fact that some people feel pressure to have kids when they aren't mentally cut out for it is a con in frum society.

OTOH, the fact that people are encouraged to see themselves as perpetually incapable is a con of secular modern Western society - as is the fact that parenting is seen as something that basically only perfect people should do. If you're not willing - nay, enthusiastic - to watch over your child like a hawk 24/7 for 18+ years, keeping them safe from everything from abductions to overly strict teachers to microplastics, and actively participating in their playtime (what grown adult doesn't enjoy building with blocks for 2 hours straight? someone not cut out for parenting, that's who) while taking care to never expect anything from them in return, you don't deserve to be a parent.

Sorry, got a bit rant-y there.

The point is, the opposite of a system with bad sides to it is another system with bad sides to it. There's no such thing as a system that's all good, all the time, to everyone.

Although if we look beyond this concept of "societies" to Torah, then I think we can get past the flaws.

honey36

Mon, May 01 2023, 9:25 am

To add to what Ora said,

I am ffb, but had a friend who was a BT. By the time I knew her she was already married with a bunch of kids, but she explained to me that before she was frum she was told she should wait as long as possible before starting a family.

She had a great career, great social life, she is beautiful and her career had a lot to do with her looks. Everyone told her, don't have kids! Your young, just take care of yourself, your free, do what makes you happy etc. Kids will ruin your figure and your career will go down the drain etc. Anyways all this time she always felt something was missing and she was never truely happy.

Once she had a family, she would say how she was so mad at all these "friends/mentors" for giving her such bad advice! She lost all that time she could have used to start her family earlier and be more fulfilled and happy.

amother

Natural

Mon, May 01 2023, 9:59 am

Ora43, you miss my point. People say you should marry and have kids so as not to be alone in old age. I'm pointing out that children are mobile and having them as a hedge against loneliness is not only a poor reason (and a selfish one) but may be setting you up for major disappointment. The only reason to have them is to love them.

amother

Babyblue

Mon, May 01 2023, 11:28 am

amother Whitewash wrote:

Yes sure. 😂 I am sure I am not the only one, just perhaps most people are not so honest about this.

I don't think people are not being honest, I think it's really very uncommon to only marry for sx. Most people also want the emotional closeness, the companionship, the romance, etc

amother

Whitewash

Mon, May 01 2023, 12:56 pm

honey36 wrote:

Thanks for being so honest! I'm super curious about how this type of relationship works, but don't want to go OT

Well actually, I don’t particularly mind talking about my marriage but it is OT. All I would say to stay on topic is that a good intimate life doesn’t stop a marriage going wrong and during niddah is like a band aid that comes off in such a scenario. It also doesn’t help make two people not cut out for parenthood into excellent parents.

amother

Whitewash

Mon, May 01 2023, 12:58 pm

amother Babyblue wrote:

I don't think people are not being honest, I think it's really very uncommon to only marry for sx. Most people also want the emotional closeness, the companionship, the romance, etc

My DH and I were older when we married and so perhaps by then were too jaded to expect romance etc. I am sure though that we both wanted that level of companionship as well.

Also, I am sure many young boys in their late teens/early 20s marry primarily for this reason.

amother

Kiwi

Thu, May 04 2023, 1:24 pm

amother NeonOrange wrote:

To answer your last question, yes I am absolutely cut out to come home to a quiet house everyday. That sounds absolutely heaven. I thrive on silence. I am very, very introverted and I love being alone surrounded by silence. Any kind of noise or chatter rattles me.
You obviously cannot understand this because you are different and are probably more extroverted and more of a people person.
To me, "lonely " is not a bad word. I love it. I can't wait for my kids to all grow up and leave the house. it sounds delicious to come home from work and have absolute peace for the entire evening. And have entire shabbosim of peace and quiet.

I also love being alone and the alone time is never enough.

I dont mind a noisy happy house. children playing interacting and communicating with each other.

what I dont like is communicating and giving of myself emotionally. physically I am not so bad.

I just want everyone to go and get on with it and leave me alone.

can only give very little of myself for a few minutes. then I am done.

I have trauma and want to be in my own world all the time.

is this the same as you describing being an introvert or is the actual presence of peopla in the house bothering you?

giftedmom

Thu, May 04 2023, 1:52 pm

amother Kiwi wrote:

This used to be me. I’ve come a long way. I find that if I have relaxed alone time during the day I can then give of myself more fully when the kids come home. I also love spring and summer because they play outside a lot.

amother

Kiwi

Thu, May 04 2023, 2:12 pm

giftedmom wrote:

well of course it helps. it would be much worse if I didnt have alone time but its still a effort.

are people like this cos introvert or trauma?

amother

Cerise

Thu, May 04 2023, 2:22 pm

A Rav who I know told me once that HKBH takes care of people who are not made for marriage or not made for motherhood by naturally not making them get married or not have kids. The problem is nowadays that there are too many solutions to these difficulties so they end up getting married (on medication etc) or having treatments. (Obviously he wasn't saying that there is no place for these things in the right cases.)

To give this context: I have a friend who got married at 48 to a guy 20 yrs older than her (I know) and was collecting funds to have treatment so she could have kids. I asked the Rav whether to help her out or not taking into account the fact that when this theoretical kid would turn 20, his father would be almost 90 and his mother almost 70. This was his answer.

Going anonymous so you can throw stones to your heart's content.