The most universally loathed Jewish gathering- the Vort

amother

Sapphire

Mon, May 22 2023, 2:32 pm

I am Bezras Hashem making a Bris this week. I am considered middle class but probably make more than average in my community, which skews towards the poor side given that many here are in Kollel/Klei Kodesh. My DH was very insistent that I use the same Bris Gemach for food that's available to the Frum community (an incredible Chessed), and not to go even one iota over what is basic standard, even though technically we could afford to make it slightly nicer. He wants to prove that making a simple Simcha can be standard, even though we can technically afford more. And he gives disproportionately large amonts of money to Tzeddaka. Oh and I don't have a Doona (don't see the point of it, it won't work for my needs), and the new stroller that I bought, while not cheap, is not a Bugaboo or the like (and is a gift from a grandparent).

watergirl

Mon, May 22 2023, 2:33 pm

Highstrung wrote:

That’s called a “Krias Shema Leinin” also known as a Krishma Leinin. This occurs in the early evening where young boys come to say shema and get a pekel.
A vacht nacht is to protect the baby from the satan or “sheidim” because they come the night before the bris. so the father is supposed to stay up all night learning to protect the baby . This morphed into the fathers friends celebrating late into the night with some nosh to wish the new father Mazal Tov and to keep him awake. This then went way out of hand and turned into a full fledged meal with men and women and now on halls?!
I made simple Vacht nachts at home for men only . The one child I didn’t do a Vacht nacht for , my DH stayed up the entire night Learning .

Right. The learning is a thing done by the father after the shemah.

amother

Moccasin

Mon, May 22 2023, 2:38 pm

amother Peru wrote:

If you’re jealous of chinuch families, switch your profession.

Also people who give to hachnasas kallah are giving especially to outfit the kallah’s who can’t afford in style. It doesn’t even have to be tzedakah. I’m from a city where the women do a hostess shower for every kallah (and the kallas of local chassanim as well) and we outfit them in style- linen, towels, kitchen appliances, dishes, china. Everything we can think of to help out. Start it in your own city if you’re so resentful. For my part, for $65 I can help a kallah’s new life beautiful and I’m all there for it.

You so obviously didn't read my whole post. Not only are my parents in klei kodesh and most of my extended family, but my husband WAS a rebbi/klei kodesh. So you said he should switch his profession? If you said that, it is glaring you didn't read my post and just want to scream about jealousy because you know the truth and that's how you avoid dealing with the issue at hand- by getting off topic. My husband was a rebbi and he didn't succeed. So he should have kept at it even though he was failing kids? That's how highly you regard rabbeim? They should do it just because they're jealous? Oy, I daven my children never have rabbeim like that.
If you are jealous of doctor's salaries, why not just go be a doctor? Not everyone has the brains, intellect, money for schooling, connections to be one. I am not jealous of doctors, nor rabbeim. You missed the entire point of my post. Maybe read it and focus and then you can comprehend and comment on what I stated.

But if you have a problem with reading comprehension here it is in a nutshell: If chinuch families would do things on the standards they did when I was growing up as the daughter of two klei kodesh parents, people wouldn't feel a need to keep up with them. There would be chasuv people making simple simchas (and by extension clothing, houses, yuntif.....) on a lesser scale and they wouldn't feel a need to outdo them thereby borrowing money to keep up with them since now many middle class need to pay more than they can afford for the same thing chinuch families receive discounts or freebies for. When the chashuv families do things on a grand scale, people feel like nebachs for not doing the same.
Sorry but this is not jealousy. It's called problem solving. If my husband is working twice as many hours as a rebbi during the year (and he does put in night hours as well) plus summers and can't afford to make the same level simcha, he feels like a failure. If it was as easy as "just switch professions" believe me so many would.
I agree chinuch families don't make a liveable wage especially if they are working just as a rebbi with no afternoon or summer job like working people. So organizations can help them afford what the rest of us can afford. I would be happy to give my maaser toward that. I think the question here is why does it have to be on a higher scale? (brand name shoes/clothes, sleep away camp, cleaning help, high end meat, discounts at luxury stores.... things many middle class can't afford) Then that becomes basic necessity and the bar has been raised on what is a necessity. Everyone wants to feel like they're normal. One of the reasons the clothing drive for chinuch families was started is so the kids should feel normal in top of the line outfits and not have to wear second hand clothing. So obviously it is normal to wear brand names. So what if you are middle class and can't afford that?? The message society gives is that you're not normal.

amother

Ecru

Mon, May 22 2023, 3:05 pm

amother Peru wrote:

Please recognize that these incentives are because no one wants to go into chinuch because it’s not livable. If people could live on chinuch wages they wouldn’t be running to go into business and therapies and nursing. They would be teaching while in school for a real job. Who will teach your children if we take away incentives? I’m not a teacher, but I wouldn’t even consider it in today’s world.

Agree with this. (wife of rebbi, and I'm a teacher too...)
But I have to say, it doesn't feel good taking incentives, vouchers etc. Its not something that rebbeim an their wives feel good about. Now that my oldest is married and trying to get enough together for a downpayment on a house, and we know we cant afford to help, well, it doesnt feel too good... and it leaves me doubting the choices we made to be in chinuch, wich is silly becasue we both have so much to offer to the children of our community.
And btw, because we are both working we earn too much for most government things like SNAP, medicaid for the adults in our famly which happens to be 4 of us right now (over21).

Bnei Berak 10

Mon, May 22 2023, 3:30 pm

amother Yolk wrote:

A vort is ment to make a new kallah confident in her new family feel happy. Of course if all her life she want to be same as her peers she wants a nice vort and

Not every poor person lives in a big tidy home. So it makes sense to book a hall

Not every average/poor hardworking person has the time to make and bake nice cakes, cookies, miniatures so we need to buy those too. And what about coupon Killah that get engaged close to tomim tovim

We need some salad and stuff for the out of town guests so add the hot kugel.

Keep the kugel on the men's side so all the hungry men could come home telling their wives just o e portion is enough tonight.

The girl in shiduchim could have her future mil. Check on her and all the shadchanim could find out which girls are on the market.

People who know in advance they can't make it to the wedding could wish at the chosen Kallah mazal tov now. Like the cousin/friend that lives in isreal.

I don't find vorts to be over the top there is just in so many ways to upgrade. Some times the family opts for no vort at all usually if it's before yomim tovim

The poor and rich on my community make similar Simcha they use the same middle of the road halls. Chose similar flowers. Friends and family chip into cakes. The rich might have more food,
Music video and picture photography...

On the other hand a poor person bris is usually in shul served with bagels a d the standards keep creeping because the rich bris is in a big hall high hot and cold food. Mother right after a baby talking to everyone wearing a bramd new stunning gown like dress.

Let's start in other parts of life before we focus on vorts. There will also be those people that have so much money they just can't find enough ways to spend it.

You mentioned miniatures.
PSA: Nobody needs miniatures. Nobody.

amother

Gladiolus

Mon, May 22 2023, 4:16 pm

Its great that you want people that aren't wealthy to tone it down without feeling like a nebach.

Shul A : kiddush is cake & soda
Shul B: kiddush is 4 types of kugel, 8 salads, chicken skewers, hard salami, hot pastrami, 3 cholents, everything from zeigelmans, and those are the regular ones, not the extra special ones.

Do you know what garbage a man who struggles with parnassah feels like to give a kiddush in shul B???? Humiliation, failure, self loathing maybe, emasculated. Ok, not the traditional, but for the average man its somewhere on that spectrum of failure.. In reality, the only way to tone that down is the gvirs to say its out of hand, I am doing something about it, please everyone join me.

Very fine for women to talk, go ask your men.

And how exactly are those without going to tone things down? They already go to the flat rate simcha halls, do barebones. What do you want to do to their dignity to make them a nebach and have them host their weddings cake and soda in their shul? No one can see your feelings, so if the takanah hall is great with you or embarrasses you, you aren't impacting change.

Someone explain the logic why you think bottom up change works. Because we put such importance on the words, ideas & desires of those who are broke and have nothing? I'm serious, explain, I want to understand because a few of you said it and I'm not understanding.

amother

Whitesmoke

Mon, May 22 2023, 4:27 pm

Look at the age of the parents. At your first Simcha you go all out. The 2nd one you invite less people. By the 5th child the parents Do Not need a Hall and catering. When you are Grandparents in your late 70's and 80's you might not even show up to an engagement party. A vort is not a place to get to know the Chosson and Kallah. Don't kid yourself. You put your kids to bed by 9.00pm if you are lucky. Get dressed up with makeup. Get to the hall close to 10.00.pm.Wish your Neighbor Mazel Tov, go over to the new M'chutan and tell them how sweet the Kallah is. Two minutes later you are looking for someone to sit and shmuze with while trying to decide when you can leave the hall without insulting your neighbor.

amother

Peru

Mon, May 22 2023, 4:38 pm

amother Moccasin wrote:

Oh sorry, so you want chinuch families to know their place and do bare bones everything because that’s all they deserve. Please see the post below about the two kiddushim where no one attends theirs because they just have cake and soda. I can’t afford lots of things either. There’s a vast difference between all brand names and not being the class/neighborhood nebach.

amother

Peru

Mon, May 22 2023, 4:42 pm

watergirl wrote:

So this here seems to be the issue. Your list of things you NEED to do are not needed. It's honestly a lot of narishkeit.

You said "Not every average/poor hardworking person has the time to make and bake nice cakes, cookies, miniatures so we need to buy those too. And what about coupon Killah that get engaged close to tomim tovim".

The point of the speech was that it's time to go back to basics. Cake, on a plate. Your neighbors can and should be contributing. Whenever I get an invitation to a vort, no matter how well I know the baalei simcha, my first question is what can I bring. This is how it's done by me. No one NEEDS to order miniatures or the fancy cakes or the personalized cookies. The kallah's peers had it and all her life she wanted it also? Time for her to grow up.

Keep the kugel on the men's side so all the hungry men could come home telling their wives just o e portion is enough tonight.
I don't even know what you mean by this honestly. Go back to just cake and eat dinner at home.

We need some salad and stuff for the out of town guests so add the hot kugel.
Maybe out of town guests should not drive in for a vort, other than the immediate family who can and should go out and find dinner before or after the vort. Why are people driving in from out of town? End that expectation and it automatically becomes the more simple affair Rabbi Wachsman is talking about!

Not every poor person lives in a big tidy home. So it makes sense to book a hall
Or, go to your own shul and pay the small fee and use their simple room. Yet another important way to simplify a vort.

The poor and rich on my community make similar Simcha they use the same middle of the road halls. Chose similar flowers. Friends and family chip into cakes. The rich might have more food,
Music video and picture photography...
This is the whole point - the poor should not be booking halls. Music? Playlist from 24six or Naki radio on a speaker (borrow one).
Photography? Ask friends to take pictures and email them to you. These are things that people have come to accept and expect as minimal and normal and they are not.

Shall I go on?

Hahahaha. I’m the black sheep daughter in law in a classy, chassidish family. Very classy. And rich. Unlike me. G-d help me if I ever put cake on a plate at a vort of one of my kids. They’d rather pay for it for me, than for me to embarrass them that way. I’m that unclassy. I think they had a cousin plan the vort of my oldest so I couldn’t mess it up. Hope all the people who came judged the miniatures I couldn’t afford.

amother

Skyblue

Mon, May 22 2023, 4:47 pm

amother Peru wrote:

That's exactly the point. There is no reason why a simple simcha has to be considered nebach.

My vort was in a family friend's place with some plates of rugelach, fruit, and drinks. Anyone who came was there to celebrate with us. It was lovely, not nebach.

If we normalize a simpler simcha there will be nothing perceived as wrong with it.

amother

SandyBrown

Mon, May 22 2023, 5:14 pm

amother Gladiolus wrote:

You calling them nebachs doesn't exactly help the situation. And yes, plenty of men would be very happy with the cake and soda kiddush. My husband for sure would prefer that. Not every man has to prove himself by spending money he doesn't have. How do you think their dignity truly is when they put themselves in debt to impress others? Do you think that they're feeling like a success after that? And at the end of the day honestly no one thinks better of them for it.

amother

Holly

Mon, May 22 2023, 5:21 pm

watergirl wrote:

The thing that stood out to me the most about your post is that the linen store lady was gossiping about other customers. Instead of being happy that people finally have the ability to treat themselves to something like that, she gossips about them? It’s humiliating enough to have to use tzedakka coupons, now, people should worry they are being talked about after they leave the store?

the linen lady talks about her feelings just like everyone else does.
She is the one who gets over the top phone calls to give away linen to chinese auctions.
she gets calls all the time to give to poor kallahs, to families who had fires, etc.
its exhausting to be a store owner in this sense.
Sometimes juggling the demands is confusing.
sometimes the guilt laid on an owner is excessive.
sometimes it takes a little expression of feelings to make sense of things that your not sure makes sense.

little neshamala

Mon, May 22 2023, 5:28 pm

amother Gladiolus wrote:

I dont know, I think bottom up change is a lot more realistic, and appropriate.
Im not wealthy. BH im not poor either. I guess I can stretch myself to make a lavish simcha and strap out my cash, but I really would never want that.
When I pick up my kids at carpool, my whiney 20 year old minivan is a sore thumb among all the other brand new leased and bought ones. Should I now tell everyone that they cant drive a brand new 2023 honda odyssea? Because it puts pressure on me to do something I cant afford? Should all the rich people drive old cars as well? This is crazy! Theres no end to what people can feel pressure from!
I drive my old minivan happily. I save up money for retirement and marrying off my kids etc etc. I make financial choices based on my priorities and my interests. NOBODY else should feel pressured to live a certain way becaise other people dont have the courage to live within their means.

Your examples of the 2 different vorts are quite extreme. Something I can easily see myself doing for a vort is:
Have it in my home (a modest hi-ranch. It will be squishy, but im ok with that.)
Simcha music streaming from a spotify playlist.
Friends take photos.
Put out rugelach, homemade or bought cookies and cake.
Angel hair pasta salads, tricolor pasta salad etc. Easy to make and qiote inexpensive.
A few fruit platters.
Drinks-soda, iced tea in my pretty glass drink stand dispenser, other drinks in pretty drink holders (from dollar tree).
Thats it.
If necessary to make it nicer (which I dont think it is, but lets say) then I'd add a potato kugel on a sterno and some franks n blanks from the freezer section.

This is all a far cry from renting a hall type vort that people are bugging out over, yet perfectly nice as a simcha. I live in town (monsey) and dont think anyone on my guest list would blink twice.

I also really believe that living within your means is a necessary skill to life. You do no one any service by limiting others' lifestyles to accomodate their own insecurities. It will just manifest in a different area of life, and then at that point they will fail. We must, we absolutely must, stop looking at others when we make any decisions, financial or otherwise. When we choose our kids' clothes, our shaitels, which school to send them to, chinuch decisions, everything. Do what you want to do, ze-hu.

(Yes, my husband fully agrees with all this. )