Do we daven for miracles

amother

Tue, Jun 13 2023, 6:40 am

Putting here and not in the issues forum because I want to be anon.
I learned that we don't daven for miracles
But I also have heard of books like the secret to miraculous salvations and say thank you and see miracles and the like

So which one is it? Do we ask for miracles or not?

This would be a miracle where by teva things would have to go totally backwards to change the course.

amother

Tue, Jun 13 2023, 6:40 am

amother OP wrote:

Putting here and not in the issues forum because I want to be anon.

I learned that we don't daven for miracles
But I also have heard of books like the secret to miraculous salvations and say thank you and see miracles and the like

So which one is it? Do we ask for miracles or not?

This would be a miracle where by teva things would have to go totally backwards to change the course.

Double post

amother

Tue, Jun 13 2023, 6:52 am

Ema of 5 wrote:

We don’t RELY on miracles, but I’ve never heard we can’t daven for them.

My Rav said not to daven for the miracle in this case. A miracle in this case would be complete opposite teva (I can't get into specifics)

salt

Tue, Jun 13 2023, 6:58 am

amother OP wrote:

My Rav said not to daven for the miracle in this case. A miracle in this case would be complete opposite teva (I can't get into specifics)

I think there is a difference between davening that someone who is terminally ill (chas veshalom) will miraculously get better, or davening that tomorrow morning I will wake up and my house will be double in size.

The former, we can daven for, the latter, there is no point.

amother

Amber

Tue, Jun 13 2023, 7:17 am

I was pregnant with a medically ill baby. The scans showed really bad things but rabbanim said not to terminate. I was Davening the whole time that it should be that the doctors made a mistake. That was wrong. My grandfather z”l told me it’s called a tefillas shav. The doctors didn’t make a mistake and it was clear proof from the scans we took. What we should’ve done was daven that Hashem make her ok in spite of what the doctors saw. Because even though that’s miraculous, it’s totally possible for Hashem to do that. And Baruch Hashem He did.

amother

Tue, Jun 13 2023, 7:26 am

amother Amber wrote:

So it's something medical. And the Rav said not to daven to make it better and I'm confused.

amother

Sage

Tue, Jun 13 2023, 7:34 am

The Mishna talks about tefilas shav.
הצועק לשעבר, הרי זו תפילת שוא.

כיצד?

היתה אשתו מעברת, ואמר, יהי רצון שתלד אשתי זכר, הרי זו תפילת שוא.

היה בא בדרך ושמע קול צוחה בעיר, ואמר, יהי רצון שלא יהיו אלו בני ביתי, הרי זו תפילת שוא

Roughly translated: Someone who cries about something that has already taken place, it is a tefila in vain. What does this look like? Someone whose wife is pregnant (after first 40 days, Bartenura) and he says Please let it be your will that my wife should have a boy, it is a tefila in vain. If someone was on a journey and he hears screaming in the town and says "Please let it be Your will that that is not members of my household, that is a tefila in vain."

If there is even a small hope, it is fine to daven but if it is clear that something has already happened, you shouldn't daven for it to change.

I had a scan yesterday - the baby stopped growing a month ago and no heartbeat. I asked the Rav and he said until we do a second scan, we can still daven. After it has been confirmed by another doctor, we don't daven.

I don't know what to say about all these miracle things.

amother

Amber

Tue, Jun 13 2023, 7:44 am

amother Sage wrote:

This is what I was trying to say but you said it much better. Hatzlacha with your pregnancy!

amother

Tue, Jun 13 2023, 7:47 am

amother Amber wrote:

This is what I was trying to say but you said it much better. Hatzlacha with your pregnancy!

What does that mean?
You said something very different. She is saying not to daven in a case like yours. The Rav said to daven. So I'm confused which is appropriate

amother

Sage

Tue, Jun 13 2023, 7:53 am

You don't daven to change the facts. You daven that despite the facts things should be good.

So eg. in her case, her grandfather said not to daven that the doctors made a mistake but that despite the findings the baby should be well.

Obviously this doesn't apply in a case like mine where there is no heartbeat. You can't daven that despite no heartbeat (after week 12) the baby is fine.
But if eg. they see a heart issue, you can't daven that they made a mistake but you can daven that the condition should be easily treated and the baby should be well.

theoneandonly

Tue, Jun 13 2023, 8:50 am

I learned that you don't daven for a medical miracle but you can daven that Hashem should give the doctors the knowledge etc to heal the person. Medical science is always advancing so it's possible b'derech hateva for the doctors to have the knowledge tomorrow to heal something that today they say is impossible...

amother

Razzmatazz

Tue, Jun 13 2023, 8:52 am

A miracle means there is zero chance of it happening. Yitzchok and rivka prayed for a child while avraham and Sara did not. A 90 year old woman should not pray for a child. A woman who is told by doctors that there is a less than 5% chance of conceiving can pray.

amother

Cerulean

Tue, Jun 13 2023, 8:55 am

amother Amber wrote:

And my baby died 16 hours after birth. This is NOT the norm. I lost a big chunk of my emu as chachomim after that.

PinkFridge

Tue, Jun 13 2023, 9:36 am

Ema of 5 wrote:

We don’t RELY on miracles, but I’ve never heard we can’t daven for them.

(Just lost a long post. I'll try to recreate.)
There's a phrase in the last techina at Birchas Kohanim, ArtScroll p. 700, where it sounds like we're actually asking for nissim v'niflaos. The commentary says, it's unseemly to do so. Who knows if we deserve it? But there are overt nissim and covert nissim (like the Purim story) and those individuals can ask for.

Think of Modim, and "nisecha sheb'chol yom imanu." Hashem has His ways and as creative the scripts as we might write, Hashem has even more ways of orchestrating things, so there is a LOT that we CAN daven for.

amother

Tue, Jun 13 2023, 11:09 am

PinkFridge wrote:

What about asking for it for someone else. We have no idea what they deserve.

amother

Tue, Jun 13 2023, 11:14 am

amother Butterscotch wrote:

Speaking of miracles. They do happen!
https://vinnews.com/2023/06/12.....gate/

But they also don't.
And It gets tricky when there is all this talk about receiving miracles when sometimes they don't happen.