What is the reason why someone would not keep Chalav Yisroel

amother

Scarlet

Fri, Aug 25 2023, 6:14 pm

amother Lavender wrote:

This is a real example of a machlokes lsheim shamayim, between the Rebbe and Reb Moshe.

The issue is not the OU itself but the milk that was produced without Jewish supervision. There are many OU products we don't eat, although OU is generally a good hechsher.

Which OU products don't you eat?

amother

Bottlebrush

Fri, Aug 25 2023, 6:17 pm

amother Lavender wrote:

OU is not the only hechsher to certify chalav stam. All the national kashrus agencies do. Isn't chof k a Lubavitch run hashgacha? And they also certify chalav stam.

amother

Lavender

Sat, Aug 26 2023, 9:24 pm

ra_mom wrote:

Can I ask question? How is it possible for there to be OK dairy cholov stam items if Chabad doesn't hold from cholov stam? Unless I'm mixing this up with another kashrus agency? I think I remember seeing OK-D cholov stam products.

This is a really good question. The OK website says it gives a hechsher in order to provide dairy products to people who rely on R' Moshe's heter.

amother

Lavender

Sat, Aug 26 2023, 10:04 pm

amother Scarlet wrote:

Which OU products don't you eat?

Dairy
breads
chicken/meat
Tuna
Anything baked with wheat
Frozen fruits/vegetables which are hard to check
Grape juice
Potato chips
Anything produced on dairy equipment

Not sure what else. I only shop in stores which carry the hechsheirim we use so I'm not exactly looking for that OU.

ETA this isn't a knock against OU. It's the same for OK and some others too.

Emuna360

Mon, Aug 28 2023, 10:49 pm

It's not astringency it's a leniency for other people. But by the way, since the cows can have that inexpensive surgery, the milk is not kosher. And speaking of the OU, you can't buy OU blackberry pie filling? For example there's probably bugs in it and yet they put their stamp on it. Somebody once said my parents didn't keep it so why should I well that's because you live in Muncie New York which is never spelled right when I speak. But you live here. There's no excuse not to be the business about. Oh it's higher in price blah blah. So by less expensive shoes it's pure. On adulterated BS. People come up with reasons for not covering their legs properly. Bs

amother

Magenta

Mon, Aug 28 2023, 10:59 pm

amother Lavender wrote:

Asking politely, looking to learn, what do you eat with an OU hechsher? Are you chasdidishe by any chance?

Can you explain...
Dairy I understand not CY
breads bc of pas?
Chicken/meat I know some ppl do chasdidishe shchita only
Tuna same here
What's anything baked with wheat?
Grape juice?
Potato chips bc pas?
DE I get

Ema of 5

Mon, Aug 28 2023, 11:07 pm

Emuna360 wrote:

I disagree. I learned that chalav yisrael in America is a stringency.
Regarding blackberry pie filling, I’m not sure what exactly the halacha is, but it’s something about if it’s ground up/puréed it’s ok.
Regarding your last sentence, what exactly does covering improperly mean? There are many different acceptable interpretations as to what does or does not need to be covered, and how to cover if it needs to be covered. So are you saying that only your way (whatever that may be) is the proper way?

Ema of 5

Mon, Aug 28 2023, 11:09 pm

amother Magenta wrote:

We don’t hold this way, but I imagine anything baked with wheat would be because of yashan and/or pas yisrael.
Grape juice probably because grapes are complicated.

farm

Tue, Aug 29 2023, 12:02 am

Rav Moshe gave his famous p’sak regarding relying on ‘cholov ha-companies’ strictly for the USA with its regulations on truth in labelling.
In the more recent years, it has become routine for dairy cows to have some sort of stomach surgery that protects them from illness (colic?) which is highly controversial in the Kosher world- these cows are considered treifos so their milk wouldn’t be Kosher. The cholov yisroel dairy farms do not perform this procedure on their cows.

GLUE

Tue, Aug 29 2023, 12:32 am

farm wrote:

I don't know the whole details, but this stomach surgery is a major machlokes in the Achrionim if it makes the cows a treifos.

I don't know all the ins and outs of the machlokes but it's not so simple to say that all cows are treifos.

amother

Sapphire

Tue, Aug 29 2023, 12:37 am

amother OP wrote:

I don’t think comparing levush to kosher is really equal. Wherever we lived as yidden our levush changed, still remaining modest but non the less it was different.

With food, for thousands of years until very very recently, we always kept kosher to strict standards, chalav yisroel being one of them. Why the sudden shift? Can money and variety really affect us that dramatically enough to change our standards?

I heard that the biggest Gdolim ate OU-D when there was no Chalav Yisroel. If it was on the same level as eating not kosher meat, they wouldnt have.

And even today, I know real frum aidel Lakewood people from long term learning families, who eat OU-D when theyre in a neighborhood that doesnt sell Chalav Yisroel.

essie14

Tue, Aug 29 2023, 12:39 am

Ema of 5 wrote:

I also learned that chalav Yisrael is a stringency. We just didn't keep most chumras when I was growing up and I don't see a reason to be strict with it now either.
Granted, I live in Israel so almost everything we buy is CY but I see no reason not to buy imported non CY items, or to be strict when we're traveling.

Ema of 5

Tue, Aug 29 2023, 1:11 am

GLUE wrote:

I have a feeling that no agency would give hashgacha to something treif, so if something is kosher then I trust that it’s kosher, even if it’s not chalav yisrael.

amother

Sapphire

Tue, Aug 29 2023, 1:13 am

Ema of 5 wrote:

I have a feeling that no agency would give hashgacha to something treif, so if something is kosher then I trust that it’s kosher, even if it’s not chalav yisrael.

100000000%.

R' Moshe Elefant of OU wouldnt be "Machti es Harabim". And same for R' Belsky and all the other Gdolim and Rabbonim, who are huge Talmidei Chachamim, associated with the OU. (I eat CY, but once in a while I eat OU-D, outside of the house).

amother

Sapphire

Tue, Aug 29 2023, 1:21 am

csstb wrote:

Truthfully, if we’re getting into the cow surgery discussion, may as well come full circle to R’ Herschel Schachter. He’s a YU rav who thinks all commercially produced milk in this country—including cholov yisroel milk—is treif because of the number of treifos in cows.

And he drinks milk?

amother

Poppy

Tue, Aug 29 2023, 1:21 am

honey36 wrote:

I asked this before but did not get an answer. Maybe the Chabad Ima's can chime in since they take this halacha very seriously.

I understand the importance of the halacha of CY. What I don't understand is what exactly is the process for certifying that milk is CY? Is there actually a mashgiach there from the time of the milking until it is in the sealed bottles? Because I had a friend in kashrus who said this is not the case. They are just checking up randomly. Also sometimes they even just use cameras to check instead of going in person. So how can you trust these hechsherim companies that your milk is actually kosher? Are you not worried the "certified CY" milk is also treif?

DH has been a mashgiach for one of the major CY dairy farms.

He goes in before the shift begins, I.e. before the cows come in for milking. He inspects the equipment and the truck. He watches as the cows come in and are attached to the milking apparatus. He stays onsite and periodically (at least every 20 minutes) looks over the milking (which takes a good few hours) to make sure everything is as it should be. When the CY run is over he seals the truck.

The hashgacha has him sign in with a fingerprint periodically to make sure he is still there and on top of what's happening.

This farm used to have DA (the cows with that stomach surgery) and he'd look over the cows as they were coming in to make sure none of them were tagged as having it. Then the farm got rid of them so now there aren't really mixups with that though it's happened in the past. (Those entire runs with thousands of lb of milk were ruined.)

There are different mashgichim at the bottling plant that check the truck seal and supervise the pasteurizing and bottling.

If you have any questions about the process I can probably find out the answers for you!