Ds wants to change minhag

amother

Aconite

Sun, Sep 10 2023, 6:14 pm

OP, just AYLOR. And treat your marrieds better than you would any guest - which means don't criticize any minhagim or things they do (if you are going to have them over at all).

And OP, try really hard not to take anything personally. It's just not worth it, and you won't accomplish anything.

amother

DarkGray

Sun, Sep 10 2023, 6:18 pm

ShishKabob wrote:

This, op, you can make the sukkah passul by closing the awning, then it's not a kosher sukkah. Maybe he just enjoys sitting on the porch? Maybe he wants an outdoor meal? If it's an indoor sukkah and he wants the roof totally open and the halachic aspect bothers you, ask your Rabbi if it's ok.
The more you object he probably will stand his ground more. I don't think it's worth making a fuss over. Hugs and enjoy your yom tov.

What??

What in the world is the point of making the sukkah passul??? Or am I misunderstanding something.

amother

DarkGray

Sun, Sep 10 2023, 6:24 pm

Let's just clarify something.

For those who hold that you need to eat in the sukka in SHmini Atzeres, it is assur for them to eat in the house. It's like any other day of Sukkos for them where it's assur to eat out of the sukka.
But for those who hold that you don't need to eat in the sukka, they aren't doing anything wrong by eating in the sukka, or at a poolside or in a park. There is no harm in eating in a sukka, because the issue is only that they don't feel its necessary, not that you MUST eat in the house.

Similarly: a person who is not makpid on gebroks, will not be over any minhagim if he goes all Pesach without eating gebroks. Whereas a person who is makpid NOT to eat gebroks will be going against his minhag to eat gebroks. (I know some people are so makpid on yes eating gebroks that they make it a point to eat kneidlach the first night, to show that this is the correct minhag. . But it's not like they are actually breaking with tradition if they don't. )

Eta: Correction. I just asked my husband, who told me that for those who eat in a sukka on Shmini Atzeres it is NOT the same level of obligation as on the first days of Sukkos. Im not sure how that plays out, but I wanted to correct what I wrote above.

amother

Cerise

Sun, Sep 10 2023, 7:03 pm

amother DarkGray wrote:

Do some people see it as a bal tosif issue?

amother

Stoneblue

Sun, Sep 10 2023, 7:17 pm

Op, what are your choices?

You can bite your tongue and agree. Or you can say no, our house, our rules. If you go the second route you will sour your relationship with your son and dil (because they've for sure discussed this between them and if your son has to go tell his wife that mommy won't let, it's not a good look), and you're going to make them not want to come to you.

Contrary to popular belief, they're not obligated to come often and might set up their lives such that they don't come often because they rather have autonomy over their religious level.

I think that you really can't tell adults what to do. Don't get me wrong, it's your house and the main meal should be run inside according to yourinhag. If he wants to make kiddish and eat a minimum outside before benching and coming in, that shouldnt be made into an issue. (Even those who hold of eating in the succah aren't as stringent as the actual days of succos so there should be a way to do this.)

amother

DarkGray

Sun, Sep 10 2023, 7:17 pm

There's a long essay on this question of eating inthe sukka on Shmini Atzeres that is very interesting. I don't know how to link it but
Here is a short excerpt:

One should not think that those who do not eat in the sukkah on Shemini Atzeres are doing something against halachah, as there are reasons for their practice. Many great
people have eaten outside the sukkah on Shemini Atzeres.51
The Aruch Hasulchan52 offers the following reason why many are lenient with sitting and eating in the sukkah on Shemini Atzeres:
If one would sit in the sukkah on Shemini Atzeres in a way that appears to be for the mitzvah of sitting in the sukkah, it would not be allowed. However, sitting in the sukkah if
it is not for the mitzvah is permitted. In places where it is pleasant outside, one must sit in the sukkah on Shemini
Atzeres just as he did the entire Yom Tov. (Since it is hot, it can be argued that it is not recognizable one is doing it for
the mitzvah and therefore it is not a problem to do so on Shemini Atzeres as well).
However, in cold countries, if we were to exempt ourselves from sitting in the sukkah because of the weather, an entire Yom Tov could pass without sitting in the sukkah.

Eta. I think this link may work:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=.....JHj_4

amother

Tulip

Mon, Sep 11 2023, 1:45 am

amother DarkGray wrote:

I can't imagine that to be the case, but maybe...
Can someone who doesn't eat in a sukka on Shmini atzeres chime in?

Yes. My father who didn't sit in the Sukka on shmini atzeres said sitting in the Sukkah would be considered baal tosif. (I think sitting in the Sukkah the day after Sukkos is actually the example given for Baal tosif). So it's not the same as someone who eats gebrokts just not eating it.

DREAMING

Mon, Sep 11 2023, 8:15 am

I don’t think it’s ok to request parent to change minhag for a child - however if your son knows you’d do it normally to accommodate guest your obviously ok with that

What he does in his own home is a different story.

amother

Chartreuse

Mon, Sep 11 2023, 12:23 pm

We eat in the sukka on Shmini Atzeres, we had a guest whose Rav held he was not allowed to enter the sukka then. He (& one of his sons) ate outdoors but outside the sukka (our sukka was not near our apartment) on the table I used for serving, etc. We ate in the sukka. It worked out fine.
For the person who mentioned it being different than the rest of yom tov here are some examples:
Even if he sleeps in the sukka the rest of yom tov, shmini atzeres dh sleeps in the house.
Dh is not as careful with drinks/snacks on shmini atzeres
The slightest inconvenience/weather/bug issue on shmini atzeres is reason enough to eat inside

anon because many people know about our guests that ate outside the sukka.

amother

Seagreen

Mon, Sep 11 2023, 12:36 pm

amother Chartreuse wrote:

And we follow a Rav and shita that we do everything in the sukka like Sukkos.
My husband and sons sleep in the sukka (if they would on Sukkos), every bite of food or drink, just like Sukkos
The only thing that we don't do is make a Bracha.

amother

Aster

Mon, Sep 11 2023, 5:39 pm

In general, I believe in letting adult children make up their own minds about their religious observance. There is a little "shtoch" one feels when a child decides to do things differently, and it can be a bigger shtoch when it's not because the child is bringing halachic reasons but is simply adopting his wife's or his rebbe's or his chavrusa's minhag. It feels like a betrayal, as if he's saying not only "You're not frum enough" but also "I'm choosing to identify with this other family or other person rather than with you."

You have to try to ignore that shtoch and neither take it personally nor argue with your ds. Evidently this is something important to him, and you need to accept that. However, there is no justification for you to change your minhag to accommodate your ds. Your sukkah is still up; you can offer him the option of eating there and joining the rest of the family after he finishes his meal. Then the ball is in his court: he can serve himself in the sukkah, or he can eat with you. You will have done your part by giving him a choice. Notice that I say he can serve himself. There's no reason for you to have to do extra work by serving him in the sukkah.

amother

Aster

Mon, Sep 11 2023, 5:47 pm

amother DarkGray wrote:

What??

What in the world is the point of making the sukkah passul??? Or am I misunderstanding something.

This sounds utterly deceitful to me. Correct me if I'm misunderstanding, but it seems she's saying "as far as you're concerned he's not allowed to eat in the sukkah, so you let him eat there but deceive him by making it possul. He's happy because he thinks he's keeping the mitzvah by eating in the sukkah, and you're happy because you 'saved' him from the 'aveirah' of eating in the sukkah."

Uh, no, it doesn't work that way. And what a horrible, manipulative way of going about things. Good way to alienate her son entirely.

amother

Clover

Mon, Sep 11 2023, 6:00 pm

amother DarkGray wrote:

Let's just clarify something.

For those who hold that you need to eat in the sukka in SHmini Atzeres, it is assur for them to eat in the house. It's like any other day of Sukkos for them where it's assur to eat out of the sukka.

Eta: Correction. I just asked my husband, who told me that for those who eat in a sukka on Shmini Atzeres it is NOT the same level of obligation as on the first days of Sukkos. Im not sure how that plays out, but I wanted to correct what I wrote above.

Correct, I believe no Bracha of Leshev Basuccah is made on shemini atzeres.

amother

DarkPurple

Mon, Sep 11 2023, 7:11 pm

Op there are two issues.
A. The emotional issue in which you don't have a say
B. The practical issue where you have a choice.

The first being the fact that your married son decided to change his Minhag,
The second being that a guest is asking if your family can change the way you do things to accommodate them.

Good luck!