Do you think our schools have gone overboard with the rules?

Chickensoupprof

Wed, Sep 27 2023, 7:45 am

amother Iris wrote:

I went to an oot community bais yaakov - all different types (and plan on sending daughters there when relevant). My family was pretty middle of the road - I was not the frummest or the most modern in my class. The school balanced their rules pretty well - most tznius rules were reasonable and about trying to create a standard that would be comfortable for both sides of the aisle - yes sometimes they misjudged and upset parents, but it was a hard balance to find making all people happy when everyone was so different.
they had barely any rules about outside of school - it would be waaay too controversial. but maybe they should have since girls in my grade would show up to after school events in mini skirts...
I think schools having technology rules for the students is reasonable, but not for parents
also, idk why in town litvish schools make rules about when girls can get their license - never made sense to me

They even try to make a law here in the Netherlands that students in high school should not have their phones in class because it is too distracting they also try to filter the computers you are not allowed to go on Social Media in the school computers.

amother

Bluebell

Wed, Sep 27 2023, 7:55 am

alwayssmiling wrote:

Having rules is important, the question is where to draw the line and how to avoid overdoing it

Right. To me, the line for out of school rules would be extreme stuff like violence, drugs. Theologically extreme stuff, like if the family considers themselves Jews for J_sus.

But extreme examples aside, I don't want to send to a school that has rules for out of school behavior. No tech rules, no tznius rules, no coed event or camp rules, no vacation rules, no driving rules, no bar or bas mitzvah. Not even kashrus and Shabbos rules, as I would love for nonfrum Jews to be able to attend if they want to and can follow the rules in school. In school, of course, set rules, even very strict ones that I may not personally hold by, and I'll make sure my kids comply respectfully. At home, I will educate and set rules for my own kids, and others will for theirs and that's that.

People who want the school to set rules for parents and homes should be able to set up schools of that sort, I don't begrudge it to them. I just don't want to send there.

NotInNJMommy

Wed, Sep 27 2023, 8:10 am

amother Cyan wrote:

Schools without rules exists and are accepting new students. Nevertheless, people are fighting to get in to the schools with the most rules and offering them money. Ask yourself why. If you hate the rules , why are you sending there?

Probably the same reason people wear shoes that hurt but look cute or have eating disorders or spend money they don't have....to fit in.

shabbatiscoming

Wed, Sep 27 2023, 8:19 am

alwayssmiling wrote:

Having rules is important, the question is where to draw the line and how to avoid overdoing it

There is having rules and there is having rules. And then there are schools that have rules for parents of the students. To me that is not just over doing it, it is over stepping in a major way.

I send to a school with no rules for the parents. That would never go.

I have never understand sending to a school that have rules that parents/family are not keeping. I dont get it. To me this is teaching your child to lie and not listen to authority or administration. I find that so awful on so many levels.

Things have to change. If you send to a school with a lot of rules, for kids and parents, you have to keep them. If not, what is that teaching your child?

amother

Magnolia

Wed, Sep 27 2023, 8:22 am

Schools need rules. Rules are important.
#1rules should apply equally to everyone the rich person shouldn't get away with it anymore then the poor kids parent. Or the rabbis son
#2rules should work realistically for that type school. Sometimes school need to turn a blind eye. If the rule request the parent dress a certain way or act a certain way. If they are slightly not following the rule it shouldn't be life over.
#3 some rules have to be rigid.

My kids schools have a parent no smart phone rule. My sons yeshivah doesnt enforce it.In my boys yeshiva we are one of the only ones that give our kids zero access to the phone. The parents quietly take out their phones during school night. Kids are not embarrassed to talk about "their fathers phone" and seem less sheltered. These kids otherwise don't have other media access

My girls school absolutely no smart phone. No smart phone on school premises. You gotta sign no smart phone. The school may no good and we'll that some of the parents have two phones or a smart phone and lie about it. But the atmosphere is so different. Kids don't talk about it in school. Most don't have access to it. Parents don't walk around taking pictures on phone in school. It's a nice atmosphere.

Some of the enforced stupid rules in my kids school are no jewelry. -teacher if my daughter accidentally forgot to take off her jewelry after yom tov. Or has a new necklace she wants to show off please let her wear it a few days before you go crazy over it. It usually is not worn the whole 10 months

No colored shoes . So this year green is "in" and the school turned a blind eye. But I don't know why the rule can't be no light colors. So my kid is OK wearing plum color shoes. Or hunter green next year even if it's out of style. It would be so much better if my kid has more options other then the frum color of this season.

amother

Wandflower

Wed, Sep 27 2023, 8:28 am

We send to a school with lots of rules for the parents. When we had our "interview" it was not at all an interview. It was a monologue by the school principal explaining very clear to DH and I what type of family they want in their school. Some examples: mother's can't wear baseball caps or denim, father's shouldn't wear shorts to the grocery store etc. I'm not making this up!

She says straight out- there are plenty of other Jewish schools in the city who will be happy to take your child if you don't want to comply.

This is what she does for every single interview. And yet this is the most popular school, and people still complain about the rules. Why are you complaining?? You knew this from wayyy before day 1. There are no surprises.

And yes, we keep all the rules and are happy to do so!

Goody2shoes

Wed, Sep 27 2023, 8:38 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

You realize that the rules keep growing and growing each year, it isn't like they are set in stone. Sometimes the rule doesn't begin to make sense.
My sisters school has the rule of no light colored shoes and gives the same list of the dark colors they can wear, green being a part of it.
This year on the first day of school the principle announced at the assembly the at being that this year the in color is green, the school has decided not to allow green shoes.
Explain how this makes sense? All the girls had new shoes, some had green because it's one of the only options, why should parents not be upset?

shabbatiscoming

Wed, Sep 27 2023, 8:39 am

amother Wandflower wrote:

How or why should this be the school's business at all? These things have zero to do with educating your children.

shabbatiscoming

Wed, Sep 27 2023, 8:40 am

alwayssmiling wrote:

I dont mean if there was a rule and they changed it on the parents. Of course there is what to be upset about. That was not what I was talking about.

amother

Wandflower

Wed, Sep 27 2023, 9:03 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

How or why should this be the school's business at all? These things have zero to do with educating your children.

You are right, they have nothing to do with education. But we don't send our kids to school just for the education (although I'm sure plenty people do, and that's perfectly fine).

The school also teaches them a way of life, gives them a geshmack for yiddishkeit and learning, teaches them about self dignity, respect and other values etc. They are our partners in raising our children with the values we want. And yes, mode of dress is one of these values amongst other things.

The school works HARD to instill their values in the children and they don't want the family to undo everything they teach at school.

Chickensoupprof

Wed, Sep 27 2023, 9:07 am

alwayssmiling wrote:

Exactly...My problem with rules like this is that they have to be taken as halacha d'oraisa which is not the case because you can't show me somewhere in the mishna berurah where it stands. Yet it enforces a kind of Yiddishkeit that hurts lots of yidden. For instance, you just bought a green shoe for DD, and bh you have lots of other kids and this year you had to make a wedding and a bar mitzvah so DD can't have new shoes because mummy and daddy don't have the budget. And because they look at externals like that it almost feel like a free pass not to work on middos.

So ok, you have everything the right shoes, the right stockings, the right whatever and daddy has his hat and jacket, because that is important but I know stories firsthand that schools did not find it important to stop bullying because the children have to fit in the picture and the parents as well. It hurts adults until this day.

mha3484

Wed, Sep 27 2023, 9:11 am

amother Wandflower wrote:

This is my perspective too but its coupled with a very reasonable rule book. I think if the rules felt too restrictive I would not see it this way.

Chickensoupprof

Wed, Sep 27 2023, 9:14 am

amother Wandflower wrote:

You know but it gives a feeling you should look over your shoulder because someone of school can be watching you, so let's say DH likes running, it is a warm summer evening DH ran 7,5 K and decides to stop at a grocery to get an ice pop when he is done, principal sees it and you are getting called. How is that fare? It again creates a monolithic culture of Yiddishkeit where only externals are important which gives stress and teaches children that it is better to wear a black hat then to be a mentch.

amother

NeonYellow

Wed, Sep 27 2023, 9:16 am

I live in Yerushalayim and send to very frum schools. The interesting thing I find is that the frummer they are, the less rules there are. For example, for my sons' cheider I have to sign that if I drive, I shouldn't park outside the cheider and sit in the car but they don't insist on women not driving. Or my daughters' school, I once asked the principal about skirt length for uniform and she said "why does it matter? It has to cover her knees no matter what she is doing. That's all. Socks or tights? I don't know, I don't care as long as I don't know. If I notice that there is a gap, I'll have to deal with it so she should make sure I don't know."

Maybe the point is that the very frum schools only attract a certain clientele so they don't need to make rules. None of the schools I send to mention smart phones - it's a non-issue. There aren't any (or at least, if there are, people are clever enough to make sure no one finds out.)

amother

Purple

Wed, Sep 27 2023, 9:16 am

mha3484 wrote:

This is my perspective too but its coupled with a very reasonable rule book. I think if the rules felt too restrictive I would not see it this way.

Would you consider no caps for mothers and no shorts for fathers to be reasonable?

Personally, I think schools can require these kinds of rules when parents are in the school, for drop off/pickup. But I don't think it's reasonable to require it even at home/in public.